Dislike for Sawback knives?

[lman30]

I've been lurking the forum for some time, and one thing I see regularly, is a fairly common dislike for knives with sawbacks. I don't personally own any; normally when camping I bring a hatchet and at very least, a folding saw.

That said, I was thinking that if you were limited to only one or two knives, a sawback machete or chopper, combined with a small utility knife, could be a killer combo. I do some long distance hiking trips from time to time, and I wouldn't mind having a light setup to strap to my belt or pack, with all of my cutting, chopping, and sawing needs accounted for.

The only reason I've been able to come up with so far for the dislike, is that most sawback knives I've seen have horribly designed saw teeth, too few teeth to be useful, and/or horrible ergonomics. A lot of the knives that I've seen have incredibly thick blades and saw teeth that are far too large, aggressive, and widely spaced, to be of any real use for breaking down timber.

I must argue though, if you were to take a traditional slim-bladed machete and apply normal raker style utility saw teeth to the spine (such as you would find on a 14-16" carpenter's saw), it would make a very effective saw. The only thing I can think of that would be a downside, is that what is now is the spine of the saw, is a sharpened edge. Normally, though, a utility saw is used with one hand, and the blade is never touched anyways.

Thoughts?

 

[CalBearTactical]

sawbacks have been useless for me and most of them don't really work good for cutting. I prefer my blades with no sawbacks and no serations, but I do have a few sawback and serrated blades for when I need them.

 

[lman30]

sawbacks have been useless for me and most of them don't really work good for cutting. I prefer my blades with no sawbacks and no serations, but I do have a few sawback and serrated blades for when I need them.

That was kind of the direction I was pointing towards... most sawbacks I've seen have horribly designed saws. If the saw was properly designed though, I find it a lot harder to come up with any real drawbacks.

IMO most of the sawback knives I've seen have absolutely no business having a saw on their back, specifically thick bladed survival or tactical type knives. A thinner bladed knife such as a machete, though, could make very good use of proper saw teeth on its spine.

 

[theAntihero]

Generally the only thing that a sawbacked knife cuts well is the sheath.

 

[lman30]

Generally the only thing that a sawbacked knife cuts well is the sheath.

Carpenter's saws don't seem to have any trouble with their storage sleeves.

I'm not trying to argue that most sawback knives aren't poorly designed and ineffective... what I'm trying to find out is if there is any reason a properly designed sawback knife would not be a useful tool. So far I'm having trouble thinking of any. Although a well designed sawback would need a different sheath than a knife without a sawback, I don't see it as a particular drawback, more of a difference. Every knife needs a sheath designed for its own specific characteristics.

 

[not2sharp]

On a knife, the constant binding of the sawback makes the main blade nearly unusuable. It also limits your ability to batton the knife or to use it as a draw knife; and, it adds potential stress risers and makes sheathing that much more complicated. Carrying a simple folding saw is so much easier. There is no need to add one to a knife.

n2s

 

[stoffi]

That said, I was thinking that if you were limited to only one or two knives

I think this is the problem a lot of the times on this forum. We ask ourselves what perfect do-it-all tools we would choose in fantasy situations. Why would you ever be limited to CHOOSE only one or two knives?! If I know that I am going into the bush, I'll bring what I need. If I end up in a survival situation unprepared, I'll have what I have. If I prepare for a survival situation, I'll build a kit which is not limited to imaginary rules; nor will I try to implement a do-it-all tool which won't work as well as a task-specific tool. I'd bring the ones I need.

You speak of the benefits of combining your needs into one tool, but should come to the obvious conclusion that it isn't the best solution, since a task-specific tool will do its job like a pro. A folding saw is light, takes up very little space. Even a pocket chainsaw (wire-type saw) is like carrying an empty wallet. So, there is no need to have just one or two tools, when you can have all of the ones that you really need and which are good at what they do. It's been done so many times before, i.e. the Rambo knife, Tom Brown Tracker knife etc. It's like the saying: "Jack of all trades, master of none", only here it's like: Pawn of all trades, master of none.

I don't dislike the idea of a multi-purpose or do-it-all tool, but it's just that they never do anything particularly well; but sure, they do it. I don't feel however, that I would ever be limited to choose only one tool (unless someone forced me to).

 

[JNewell]

Agree, unless your name is Rambo. I have exactly one sawback fixed blade, and I have it entirely for collector reasons, rather than as a user - it's a CRK Aviator.

On a knife, the constant binding of the sawback makes the main blade nearly unusuable. It also limits your ability to batton the knife or to use it as a draw knife; and, it adds potential stress risers and makes sheathing that much more complicated. Carrying a simple folding saw is so much easier. There is no need to add one to a knife.

n2s

 

[Dorito Monk]

I don't really see any practical application for sawback knives. It just seems like an unnecessary gimmick thrown on, kind of like throwing glass breakers or seatbelt cutters onto knives just for the hell of it.

 

[ocnLogan]

I haven't found any knife with a sawback that I like because most of the ones that I see look like this one.

I agree that a well designed one could be interesting, but for some reason I've never seen them executed well. Most of the time you see them on a tacticlol style blade made out of cheapo steel, which doesn't appeal to most of us.

The only one I know of that might be ok is the 12in Ontario Sawback Machete, but I've never heard anyone test the saw portion...

 

[Frostyfingers]

The biggest issue with sawback knives for me is that it limits the usefulness of either edge. I don't even like swedges on fixed blades because I often use my thumb or other fingers to add pressure to the back of the blade near the point. A swedge or sawback completely eliminates this possibility, forcing all cutting to be done using the handle of the knife, 4-8 inches away from the point. It is dangerous and difficult to try to use the point of a longer knife without being able to guide it with the spine. The flipside of this is that like the knife blade, the only pressure you could put on the saw blade would come from the handle on one end. This severely limits the usefulness of the saw, especially considering that you are now holding a knife handle backwards and cannot put any pressure on the spine of the saw to guide the teeth or increase efficiency while cutting. Just my two cents, based on my use of a knife and saw. Two separate tool for two separate purposes.

Frosty

 

[Mike-The-Knife]

Personally I'd rather carry a good knife and a lightweight saw . There can be times you need to batton to get to the inner dry wood and the saw tooth spine on those knives doesn't lend itself well to that , possibley even causing the blade to fail . Also there is always the increased risk of cutting yourself on what would normally be a safe surface .


HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS !

 

[GRIM 62]

I have a Spivey Sabertooth and an old Buckmaster.The Sabertooths sawbacks teeth is way better of the two.

 

[lman30]

Thanks for the replies everyone, some good points being brought up.

I think this is the problem a lot of the times on this forum. We ask ourselves what perfect do-it-all tools we would choose in fantasy situations. Why would you ever be limited to CHOOSE only one or two knives?! If I know that I am going into the bush, I'll bring what I need. If I end up in a survival situation unprepared, I'll have what I have. If I prepare for a survival situation, I'll build a kit which is not limited to imaginary rules; nor will I try to implement a do-it-all tool which won't work as well as a task-specific tool. I'd bring the ones I need.

You speak of the benefits of combining your needs into one tool, but should come to the obvious conclusion that it isn't the best solution, since a task-specific tool will do its job like a pro. A folding saw is light, takes up very little space. Even a pocket chainsaw (wire-type saw) is like carrying an empty wallet. So, there is no need to have just one or two tools, when you can have all of the ones that you really need and which are good at what they do. It's been done so many times before, i.e. the Rambo knife, Tom Brown Tracker knife etc. It's like the saying: "Jack of all trades, master of none", only here it's like: Pawn of all trades, master of none.

I don't dislike the idea of a multi-purpose or do-it-all tool, but it's just that they never do anything particularly well; but sure, they do it. I don't feel however, that I would ever be limited to choose only one tool (unless someone forced me to).

These are valid points, but I don't entirely agree.

I don't consider a long distance hiking trip a "fantasy situation". I go at least once a year (unless I'm just not able to) on 80-100 mile hiking trips lasting 7-10 days.

To put it bluntly, if I were to bring every task-specific tool I could use on my hiking trip, I'd end up pulling a cart behind me.

I already carry a folding saw and wire saw in my pack. The wire saw lives in my excursion kit, so it's not going anywhere, but I would love to shave a pound or two off by losing the folding saw and combining it with my chopper. I already carry a small chopper and utility knife, so I might as well use the opposite side of the chopper blade for something.

I haven't found any knife with a sawback that I like because most of the ones that I see look like this one.

I agree that a well designed one could be interesting, but for some reason I've never seen them executed well. Most of the time you see them on a tacticlol style blade made out of cheapo steel, which doesn't appeal to most of us.

The only one I know of that might be ok is the 12in Ontario Sawback Machete, but I've never heard anyone test the saw portion...

That picture you posted is the exact reason why I think most folks hate sawbacks.

Those ontario sawbacks are pretty close to what I'm thinking, but from what I've found so far, they don't have a proper offset raker tooth profile on the saw portion.

The biggest issue with sawback knives for me is that it limits the usefulness of either edge. I don't even like swedges on fixed blades because I often use my thumb or other fingers to add pressure to the back of the blade near the point. A swedge or sawback completely eliminates this possibility, forcing all cutting to be done using the handle of the knife, 4-8 inches away from the point. It is dangerous and difficult to try to use the point of a longer knife without being able to guide it with the spine. The flipside of this is that like the knife blade, the only pressure you could put on the saw blade would come from the handle on one end. This severely limits the usefulness of the saw, especially considering that you are now holding a knife handle backwards and cannot put any pressure on the spine of the saw to guide the teeth or increase efficiency while cutting. Just my two cents, based on my use of a knife and saw. Two separate tool for two separate purposes.

Frosty

Most small carpenter's saws are meant to be used one handed. The teeth should do all of the work, and you shouldn't have to apply anything other than slight downward pressure with your working arm. I can understand your point about using the spine for control during fine cutting, OTOH I don't usually use a machete for fine cutting, that's what I carry my hunter for.

I suppose I could see the advantage of leaving a blank area in the front and back, for finger control and batoning respectively.

 

[Daniel Fairly Knives]

In my opinion any larger knife or chopper should have a bit of "drop" to the handle for comfort and ergonomics. If you flip that handle over to saw you have hardly any leverage because of the way the handle should drop. You could have a straight handle that worked OK in either position but it wouldn't work well in either, the wrist fatigue would be tremendous as well. To me they seem like they should be a good idea but in practice they cut too slowly and are too hard on the wrist.

I say whatever works for you is best!

 

[brandonc]

I have a gerber machete with a sawback that works well, because it is thin, long and double cut. Most belt knives are too thick to have a usable saw.

 

[mr.trooper]

There are some knives that actually have a real cross-cut saw. Some are single row and some are double row, but they all work reasonably well. Some of those are even on 'cheapo' inexpensive knives.

It all depends on the design of that individual blade.

YES, the SOG 'Jungle Primitive' has a very poorly designed saw (if it were ever even intended to be functional). On the other hand, the 'SOGfari' machete actually has a decent single row cross cut saw, at 1/2 of the MSRP.

Each knife is its own animal, and should be treated as such, sawback or not.

 

[lman30]

In my opinion any larger knife or chopper should have a bit of "drop" to the handle for comfort and ergonomics. If you flip that handle over to saw you have hardly any leverage because of the way the handle should drop. You could have a straight handle that worked OK in either position but it wouldn't work well in either, the wrist fatigue would be tremendous as well. To me they seem like they should be a good idea but in practice they cut too slowly and are too hard on the wrist.

I say whatever works for you is best!

That's definitely a legitimate criticism. I'm a fan of ergonomic knife handles, and generally ergonomic for one direction is the complete lack thereof for the other.

There are some knives that actually have a real cross-cut saw. Some are single row and some are double row, but they all work reasonably well. Some of those are even on 'cheapo' inexpensive knives.

It all depends on the design of that individual blade.

YES, the SOG 'Jungle Primitive' has a very poorly designed saw (if it were ever even intended to be functional). On the other hand, the 'SOGfari' machete actually has a decent single row cross cut saw, at 1/2 of the MSRP.

Each knife is its own animal, and should be treated as such, sawback or not.

That's some serious truth right there.

 

[Bill1170]

For a steel saw to work effectively the teeth need some "set" so that the saw kerf is wider than the saw body. This keeps the saw from binding in the cut. If you do this geometry on the back of a knife, then the teeth will drag on anything you through cut (using it as a knife) that is thicker than the blade is deep. The points mentioned already about ergonomics, batoning, and stress risers are also valid objections.

 

[Dr Heelhook]

I think why "sawback" knives often suck is that the Rambo-style "sawback" knife in fact doesn't have a saw on the back of it at all, but some sort of wire cutting device, which some people confuse with a saw (in the same way some people think that a serrated edge has anything to do with a saw :barf. I mean the whole idea of putting a saw on a thick blade like that is ridiculous.

This of course doesn't mean that putting a REAL saw on the back of a bladed tool is necessarily a bad thing. Sure, if you have a lot of room and the ability to carry a lot of weight, you can bring whatever tools you want, but if you want to travel as light as possible and really find the need for an actual machete (which you intend to use, not as an axe for chopping wood, but as a machete, meaning a long, thin, light blade for clearing light vegetation that is in your way as you walk), I think combining it with a saw on the back can be a great way of bringing one tool instead of two, to minimize weight.

The length and thin stock of the machete will probably serve you great for a saw. The fact that it's hard to "baton" with it really isn't a problem neither, first of all because that's not what a machete is used for, second because now you can just saw up the firewood instead if you need to. I think this could work fine.