Do I Raise a Burr With Each Stone in Progression

[eric0822]

I apologize in advance for asking this question, for I'm certain it's been discussed in the forum numerous times. But my search attempts didn't find a particular post that poses this same question. So, I'll ask:

I raise a burr with the coarsest stone (I'm talking freehand, BTW), flip, do the other side and (attempt) to (mostly) deburr by alternating edge-leading strokes before moving onto the next stone. I can do this pretty well, so no problem. My issue seems to be where to go from here.

For the next stone (and all stones in succession), the only way I've been able to maintain and enhance the initial sharpness is to raise a burr with each stone, deburring, and moving on to the next stone. I know a lot of folks say you only need that first burr and that you're just wasting steel by getting a burr with each stone, but I've tried just alternating strokes and trying to remove previous scratch pattern, but it doesn't seem to work for me unless I raise a burr with each stone.

So I ask the experts: Is getting a burr with each stone OK? If the answer is no (after the first stone), what approach do I take that doesn't result in losing sharpness?

 

[PirateSeulb]

I would say it might depend on the type of edge your going for and the number of progressions but I hope to hear a more professional and seasoned response.

 

[HeavyHanded]

If you are going with a single cutting bevel from shoulder to apex then it makes sense to raise a burr at each transition. Once the edge is reset on the coarse stone and burr mostly removed 80-100% every subsequent stone can be used to make progressively smaller burrs.

You don't have to make an obvious burr - if the grind visibly runs the width of the bevel and/or you can feel even a hint of one (and/or it is the first stone and the edge feels three finger sticky) you're ready for the next stone.

Even with a microbevel it makes sense to use this approach up to the last stone. On the last stone I do NOT want to raise a burr.

 

[Alberta Ed]

I would say no. Raise the burr with your first, coarsest hone, then remove it with the finer hone(s). I find I get the best results with high carbide content steels (S30V etc.) by honing first on a DMT Extra Coarse 220 grit to get the burr, then finishing with a DMT ultra fine 1200 grit. That seems to create a toothy edge that cuts like a microscopic chainsaw.

 

[eric0822]

I would say no. Raise the burr with your first, coarsest hone, then remove it with the finer hone(s). I find I get the best results with high carbide content steels (S30V etc.) by honing first on a DMT Extra Coarse 220 grit to get the burr, then finishing with a DMT ultra fine 1200 grit. That seems to create a toothy edge that cuts like a microscopic chainsaw.

So then my question would be, after the 220 grit to get the burr, what are you doing with each stone thereafter? For me, if I don't get a burr on next stone, I can't seem to maintain sharpness. I know it's because I'm not fully removing the previous scratch pattern, but don't know how to do that without creating/feeling a burr.

 

[Craig James]

I’m by no means an expert but I like the surety that raising a burr gives me that I’ve apexed the edge on every stone in the progression. As the stones get finer the burrs get smaller. The highest grit I tend to go to is 6000 and with that stone I can’t feel the burr as long as I’m careful and light with my polishing strokes

 

[Twindog]

So then my question would be, after the 220 grit to get the burr, what are you doing with each stone thereafter? For me, if I don't get a burr on next stone, I can't seem to maintain sharpness. I know it's because I'm not fully removing the previous scratch pattern, but don't know how to do that without creating/feeling a burr.

Craig above is correct.

Once you reach the apex, you are always going to raise a new burr with each new pass of the stone. You can't help it. As you progress into finer grits, use lighter strokes and/or use shorter strokes, the burr gets smaller and smaller.

I always remove the burr after sharpening with each new stone grit. That gets rid of the old, damaged steel and lets you start the next stone on a clean apex.

At the very end, you want to do as much as you can to eliminate any remaining burr.

With a clean apex at the end or your stone work, stropping will make your edge pop.

 

[SubMicron]

So then my question would be, after the 220 grit to get the burr, what are you doing with each stone thereafter? For me, if I don't get a burr on next stone, I can't seem to maintain sharpness. I know it's because I'm not fully removing the previous scratch pattern, but don't know how to do that without creating/feeling a burr.

Im not an expert either but I have some thoughts on the subject.

I'd say that the answer depends on what you want to achieve with the edge.

Its important to remember that there's more than one correct way to sharpen a knife. In most scenarios, keeping the burr small is very important.

Before you're able to feel a burr wrapping around the other side, you'll be able to feel a micro burr of sorts in the direction you expect by feeling it side to side instead of up and down the apex. By sliding left or right on skin, it will grab harder or more aggressively in one direction. Be careful with this. I generally use the more sensitive areas on my hand, such as the side of my finger or a meaty part of my palm. Again, be very careful.

Whether it's the three finger test or if im checking a micro burr left or right on sensitive skin, I'm touching and feeling the apex every step of the way, usually every time I flip the knife over.

Generally speaking, if the stone or plate I'm on is going to be followed up with another, or if polish is the goal, I'll remove the scratch pattern of the previous, and work up a new small burr. This ensures that I'm not stacking mistake on top of mistake and that I'm taking a clean and consistent apex to the next stone. On my final stone or plate, I'll usually only work up a micro burr and then lightly finish. It really depends on if you're trying to completely remove the previous scratch pattern, and if you are, only a very small burr is necessary.

From a DMT 220, typically I would go next to either a 400 or 600 grit diamond and completely remove the previous scratch pattern. I could finish on either one or go higher, or otherwise move over to ceramics. You could even basically finish on the 220, and then make a couple light passes on a high grit stone or plate, and then a touch on a strop.

Good diamond or cbn strops are the key. Whether you should strop lightly or heavily also depends on what you're trying to do.

 

[bgentry]

Japanese sword sharpeners are called "Polishers". I always thought that was really weird. I mean, is this guy making the sides of the sword pretty, or is he sharpening the blade edge? Polisher?

Turns out, I just didn't know what I didn't know. After you have made an initial apex on your blade edge... brought the edge bevels together until they meet and then removed the burr... You have achieved a sharp, sharp edge. Even from the 220 DMT, this edge should cleanly cut notebook paper and probably phonebook paper. It should shave hair, but roughly and not very cleanly.

What you are doing after this is *polishing* the edge. You are refining the scratch pattern to make it smoother and to thin the edge further, *and* to make the edge less jagged and more smooth and straight. I think you know most of this, but it's illustrative to think of this set of steps as polishing. Because that's what it is.

Now, how do you know when to move on when polishing (sanding) other stuff like wood or ball bearings or car paint or anything else? By observation. Has the scratch pattern changed? Have you achieved a new level of refinement? This is easy to say when working with a 12x12 piece of wood or even a flat metal plate that's big. But for a blade edge, which might only be 1/16" wide, it's not so easy.

The burr is not an indicator of polish. It *is* an indicator that grinding has reached the edge. I use it myself when doing polishing. But what you really should be doing is some combination of:

1. Making a small burr.
2. Looking at the reflection and scratch pattern on the edge bevel you are grinding.
3. Doing some sort of sharpness test.

When the scratch pattern changes, you know you have polished the surface to the level of the stone or paper or belt you are using. When the burr forms, you know you have gotten to the edge of the edge. When the cutting performance is where you want it to be, you have the blade performance you want.

Knowing what level of refinement you want is very important. If you want a really pretty edge that's bright and shiny and does all the paper and hair cutting tricks, then a very polished edge is your goal. How high of a polish? How much time and money do you want to spend?

If you goal is pure cutting performance, then you need to find the right balance of polish for your application. For me, these days (and for the last 5 to 7 years) it's a very low level of polish. On my current belt sander that means a 180 grit belt, then careful deburring. Those edges have *bite* and will hook into material. I can slice rolled up news paper with only a little crushing using this kind of edge. They also shave hair.

Know your goal and use observation to get there. Good luck!

Brian.

 

[sickpuppy1]

So many opinions and styles of sharpening!!
My opinion is that once I get my burr from the initial stone, be it 80,120 or 220, I should have corrected the apex of the edge and from there on I am refining the edge to my liking. If I continue to go for a burr I’m removing more metal than I need to. So after the initial burr I am refining and smoothing the edge for additional sharpness. Or shine if that’s what I’m after. I may have a micro burr that needs to be addressed, but no intentional burr. And once I get to 650 I use edge trailing strokes only.

 

[bgentry]

Since I was talking about "what level of polish do you want?", I thought I'd show a little video comparison I made of polished versus not very polished.

Brian.

 

[eric0822]

Japanese sword sharpeners are called "Polishers". I always thought that was really weird. I mean, is this guy making the sides of the sword pretty, or is he sharpening the blade edge? Polisher?

Turns out, I just didn't know what I didn't know. After you have made an initial apex on your blade edge... brought the edge bevels together until they meet and then removed the burr... You have achieved a sharp, sharp edge. Even from the 220 DMT, this edge should cleanly cut notebook paper and probably phonebook paper. It should shave hair, but roughly and not very cleanly.

What you are doing after this is *polishing* the edge. You are refining the scratch pattern to make it smoother and to thin the edge further, *and* to make the edge less jagged and more smooth and straight. I think you know most of this, but it's illustrative to think of this set of steps as polishing. Because that's what it is.

Now, how do you know when to move on when polishing (sanding) other stuff like wood or ball bearings or car paint or anything else? By observation. Has the scratch pattern changed? Have you achieved a new level of refinement? This is easy to say when working with a 12x12 piece of wood or even a flat metal plate that's big. But for a blade edge, which might only be 1/16" wide, it's not so easy.

The burr is not an indicator of polish. It *is* an indicator that grinding has reached the edge. I use it myself when doing polishing. But what you really should be doing is some combination of:

1. Making a small burr.
2. Looking at the reflection and scratch pattern on the edge bevel you are grinding.
3. Doing some sort of sharpness test.

When the scratch pattern changes, you know you have polished the surface to the level of the stone or paper or belt you are using. When the burr forms, you know you have gotten to the edge of the edge. When the cutting performance is where you want it to be, you have the blade performance you want.

Knowing what level of refinement you want is very important. If you want a really pretty edge that's bright and shiny and does all the paper and hair cutting tricks, then a very polished edge is your goal. How high of a polish? How much time and money do you want to spend?

If you goal is pure cutting performance, then you need to find the right balance of polish for your application. For me, these days (and for the last 5 to 7 years) it's a very low level of polish. On my current belt sander that means a 180 grit belt, then careful deburring. Those edges have *bite* and will hook into material. I can slice rolled up news paper with only a little crushing using this kind of edge. They also shave hair.

Know your goal and use observation to get there. Good luck!

Brian.

Thanks so much for all the detail! Question: After that initial stone, if you are polishing on the next stone(s), are you alternating strokes or scrubbing one side then the other, back and forth, etc.?

 

[Craig James]

Honestly, the answer is it depends. Many people only use edge trailing strokes on polishing stones. Personally I tend to use back and forth motions with light pressure until the very end when I then favour edge trailing. Try both methods and see what you prefer

 

[sickpuppy1]

Yeah, that one really is a "whatever floats your boat" thing. I mentioned that I do edge following after 650 grit. I do that so I dont have criss crossed scratch patterns on the steel and keeps the residue/swarf away from the main body. Just my way,nothing scientific.

 

[bgentry]

After that initial stone, if you are polishing on the next stone(s), are you alternating strokes or scrubbing one side then the other, back and forth, etc.?

I mostly use scrubbing strokes. Though when I'm deburring, I'll always do single strokes and generally alternate sides while I'm doing it.

This is all a little fiddly though because, again, we are talking about such a narrow bevel. So you will almost never be perfectly flat on that bevel. You'll be leaning one way or another and probably moving that lean around as you grind/stroke/scrub.

Jason B talks about "sneaking up on the edge". I think what Jason does (and perhaps he will comment) is that he stays on the bevel, but with an emphasis towards the shoulder side of the bevel. So he polishes and polishes until the scratch pattern gets where he wants it. *Then* he slightly changes his force so he hits towards the cutting edge instead, finally grinding that last, itty bitty little part of the bevel that touches the edge. "Sneaking up on it." The idea is so he doesn't produce a burr while doing most of the polishing and only produces the minimal burr that he can after hitting that last bit. I myself have NEVER been this good. I'm just relating something I read him talking about here.

Brian.

 

[JohnIrish]

Oops.. I guess I have been doing things wrong... I normally move to the next stone and let the finer stone remove the burr. I will now remove the burr before I change stones using light leading edge strokes.

 

[Sonnydaze]

I’m by no means an expert but I like the surety that raising a burr gives me that I’ve apexed the edge on every stone in the progression. As the stones get finer the burrs get smaller. The highest grit I tend to go to is 6000 and with that stone I can’t feel the burr as long as I’m careful and light with my polishing strokes

You can get a ton of slurry and burr with a 400 grit stone, but as was said here, higher grits produce much less in terms of a burr, to the point where it really cannot be felt with the thumbnail.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Oops.. I guess I have been doing things wrong... I normally move to the next stone and let the finer stone remove the burr. I will now remove the burr before I change stones using light leading edge strokes.

You can do that on the next stone anyway. Just raise one, flip it, swap stones and deburr at higher angle before you move on to actual polish/grind.

 

[MacGuyVR]

I have read everyone’s posts, but I still have one particular question I didn’t find an answer to. Ok, so I’ve created a good burr with a 220grit diamond stone. Do I leave the 220 grit stone in place upon flipping the knife to repeat the process OR, do I progress to the next stone (say 320 grit) then flip the knife to remove & create the burr on the other side? PLEASE someone answer this!! Thanks in advance! ;-}. MM

 

[AntDog]

Do both sides of the knife on the 220, then do both sides on the 320, and so on.

You should get a burr on both sides but the burr will get smaller with each move up to a progressively finer grit, until the grit is so fine you can’t feel a burr anymore.

When you pull it off of an extra fine stone you shouldn’t have a burr you can feel anymore at all. It should be a nicely polished very smooth edge.