Do you believe, and more discussion.

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The chances of one protein forming correctly by random chance is about 1 in
1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
 
If this isn't real, I don't know what is. o_O

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This man speaks truth!

I know Michelle Obama when I see her.:D
 
Here's something. AA, NA, etc are proven to work and for those programs a main requirement is to give up trying to control it yourself and leave it to a higher power to take care of. Although i don't think there's God somewhere saying "ah, another six dudes are going on the wagon, I'll send some help, good deal", I think they need that as part of the program for it to succeed. How does that work? In giving a large part of the responsibility for their own recovery to a higher power, it works better than if they do it themselves. Why?
'Proven to work' is a very strong statement for those particular programs. It's hard to accurately measure long term efficacy in addiction treatments, but the best measures we have suggest they work for between 4-10% of participants long term.

Furthermore, there are treatments like behavioral cognitive therapy, secular group therapy and even medications used for aversion therapy that seem to have similar, if not better, success rates.

Given that, saying that the high power component is needed to succeed seems extremely suspect.
 
God does not "punish the descendants of someone who committed a 'sin' ": we are sinners too. Adam committed the original sin, but we sin every day. And you know it--He gave you a conscience. He promised a Redeemer immediately after the Fall. Because He loves us. John 3:16. If you reject that love, "that's on you."

Ok so we are not kicked out of paradise and have to work and toil and kill and now know disease and suffering etc, etc, etc because of Adam's sin that we inherited the punishment of as a curse from a butt hurt angry god-baby throwing a tantrum.

What bible do you read, it ain't christianity.
 
Ok so we are not kicked out of paradise and have to work and toil and kill and now know disease and suffering etc, etc, etc because of Adam's sin that we inherited the punishment of as a curse from a butt hurt angry god-baby throwing a tantrum.

What bible do you read, it ain't christianity.
That's a lie. I read the Holy Bible, consisting of the Old and New Testaments. I prefer the Authorized Version, but there are many English translations. It's been translated into virtually every language. And you are grossly mischaracterizing the Bible and what it teaches. Why don't you read it before you criticize it?

You start this thread by innocently asking "what do you believe and why?" And ask us "to respect others' beliefs" if we want to participate. Buy you have made a number of condescending and disparaging remarks, and not only to Christians. Why did you start this thread? To cause trouble? To get reactions?

If you are sincerely seeking the truth, you will find it. I suggest you pray to God to reveal Himself to you, and then read His word. God wrote the Bible (using men, of course), and it is truth. The theme is Jesus Christ, from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.
 
So Houlahound... you’ve spent time arguing against our beliefs, but what are yours? How do you think the world came about?

Also I found your last post to be extremely uncalled for and offensive, so maybe stick to your rule of “respecting others beliefs”
 
That's a lie. I read the Holy Bible, consisting of the Old and New Testaments. I prefer the Authorized Version, but there are many English translations. It's been translated into virtually every language. And you are grossly mischaracterizing the Bible and what it teaches. Why don't you read it before you criticize it?

You start this thread by innocently asking "what do you believe and why?" And ask us "to respect others' beliefs" if we want to participate. Buy you have made a number of condescending and disparaging remarks, and not only to Christians. Why did you start this thread? To cause trouble? To get reactions?

If you are sincerely seeking the truth, you will find it. I suggest you pray to God to reveal Himself to you, and then read His word. God wrote the Bible (using men, of course), and it is truth. The theme is Jesus Christ, from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

We will all be persecuted.
 
This is going to be long and will not make me any friends, but it's something I think about a lot.

I think that it doesn't matter how the universe was created. Maybe God spoke it into existence. Maybe some high frequency vibrations slowed to matter as we know it. Maybe the big bang occurred. I don't think it matters or is consequential. Eventually, Earth was formed. Maybe from dust and heat combining over an unfathomable number of years. I'm fine with that. Eventually life as we know it began. It was either willed by a deity or created intentionally by Earth itself or a convenient coincidence. I think how this happened doesn't matter either. Life may have evolved to where you have an instant before humans existed and immediately after an instant where people existed. Maybe God thought to make them, maybe it was aliens, or maybe it was evolution. Still, it doesn't matter. Now that you have people, they are defined by their ability to consider themselves within society. I believe that all life records input from the senses into a shared memory like instinct or the Collective Unconscious or what Christians call the Holy Spirit. I think that people feel a need to fill roles, so they do. I think acting in accordance with a role you believe you fill is "good" and acting contrary to a role you believe you fill is "evil". I believe that will gives an intention to the environment around you, and that facilitates minor changes in your surroundings. I think that this is more or less how prophesy and prayer and religion work. It's like tuning groups to the same goal to increase the likelihood of finding it to be true. I think that a belief in God or any deity creates that deity in such a way that its believers can identify with a belief and use it for a common goal. I believe that a belief in a concept similar to Jesus is necessary for a pleasant afterlife because it is difficult for a person to forgive themselves. Maybe they need someone else to. I believe that on the whole, the meaning of life is to experience things using your senses and record the results to maintain the Earth's memory of itself. I believe that as you're dying, your senses will likely go away before your feeling of self does. At that point, your mind is only left with your memories and your beliefs. I believe that you will not sense time passing, so this is your eternal afterlife, no matter how long it actually lasts. I also believe that my beliefs are not necessarily right, but are similar to right.
 
I think what I said is quite clear. There are people who cannot do for themselves. The old. The infirm. The disabled. But there are complete healthy, smart, qualified people out there who choose not to work. I’ve seen them come through my plant, I’ve tried train them. Those folks should not be allowed to drain the social systems or private generosity that is also helping those that can’t. I am not qualified to sort out many in big grey area between able and unable but there are also many very able that a draining the current systems. While I am Christian, I also do not believe in taking from someone who has and giving to someone who does not for the simple reason of “I want it”. That discussion could become much more political and that is a one not for this thread.

Instead of answering my questions, you've given me your opinion on how you think a social system ought to function, at the same time telling me you do not care to discuss the politics about it. That's your first contradicting statement. The second is that you tell me you see healthy, smart, qualified people come to your "plant" to work, but choose not to work? That also is a contradicting statement. Maybe they simply are not up to your standards, or possibly you are a poor trainer? After all, they are there to work, yes? If they did not want to work they wouldn't be there. If they are not qualified you should fire them so they can pursue another line of work, but you said they were qualified for the work, so you see my confusion there in your statement? Without getting into the politics of that particular situation as you requested, I'll leave it at that.
I'm going to ask you again though, can you not fathom why someone may choose not to work? The OP gave an example of some countries/religions/belief systems, believe in a caste and karma social system. Can you come up with any reasons on your own? To my knowledge, didn't Jesus himself wander about to spread the word of God, accepting alms at times? I suppose you could consider that a job if you like, the work of God, but it still does not fit your definition of how you think folks ought to be.
And lastly, I will ask, what does all of this have to do with you helping people? If you see a car in front of you blow out a tire in the middle of the desert and no one else is around, are you going to ask them if they have a job first before you consider helping them? Or would you just keep driving altogether?
 
So Houlahound... you’ve spent time arguing against our beliefs, but what are yours? How do you think the world came about?

I have absolutely no idea how the universe came about, it's a complete mystery to me. The "world" as you mentioned seems to be a different question to what we are discussing and you would have to clarify what you mean.

More broadly I believe in the possibility that there might be some form of diety that exists. What form, purpose and interest that diety may have in humans I don't know.
 
Instead of answering my questions, you've given me your opinion on how you think a social system ought to function, at the same time telling me you do not care to discuss the politics about it. That's your first contradicting statement. The second is that you tell me you see healthy, smart, qualified people come to your "plant" to work, but choose not to work? That also is a contradicting statement. Maybe they simply are not up to your standards, or possibly you are a poor trainer? After all, they are there to work, yes? If they did not want to work they wouldn't be there. If they are not qualified you should fire them so they can pursue another line of work, but you said they were qualified for the work, so you see my confusion there in your statement? Without getting into the politics of that particular situation as you requested, I'll leave it at that.
I'm going to ask you again though, can you not fathom why someone may choose not to work? The OP gave an example of some countries/religions/belief systems, believe in a caste and karma social system. Can you come up with any reasons on your own? To my knowledge, didn't Jesus himself wander about to spread the word of God, accepting alms at times? I suppose you could consider that a job if you like, the work of God, but it still does not fit your definition of how you think folks ought to be.
And lastly, I will ask, what does all of this have to do with you helping people? If you see a car in front of you blow out a tire in the middle of the desert and no one else is around, are you going to ask them if they have a job first before you consider helping them? Or would you just keep driving altogether?

ahh yes. I see your confusion here. I do not hire people. They get sent to me, put on my shift after deemed qualified by another department. How are they qualified but choose not to work? They have the education, they have the physical ability, and the intelligence. But they choose to sit in the chair and not try to get up and go learn. They choose to take the “I got a plant job, I got it made” route. I cannot fire people but I can give my honest review. I give plenty chance. By the time it escalates to that, I have had minimum of 2 personal, non recorded reviews and one recorded. I have only once, in 9 years at my position, had to recommend someone be terminated. I do everything I can to ensure their success. They don’t want to work. They want the money. They want the benefits. But they don’t want to put in the work required to maintain their position. FWIW, it is a very sought after position. If you can’t fathom why someone would choose not to work, it actually says a whole lot about your work ethic. Probably a good one.

The Bible actually lays out how clergy is to use the money given to the church to sustain themselves. It is not to be wasted, which is why it is up to us to properly vette the leadership we support.

As far as your example of helping someone with a flat in the desert. Without a doubt, I would stop to help. No matter what. They may just need a phone or may need help swapping it or a ride. But if I see someone in an Escalade wearing the latest fancy clothes with a flat outside a tire shop? Well, they got it. In the desert? I’ll stop and help but once they got help coming, they obviously can afford the repair. It’s a huge grey area, not so black and white.

I haven’t ran across your particular scenario. But I am confident in my choices driven by my faith.

But, no matter what I say, you’ve decided that I am not fair and discriminating against someone so trying to unmuddy these waters is pointless, I feel.
 
ahh yes. I see your confusion here. I do not hire people. They get sent to me, put on my shift after deemed qualified by another department. How are they qualified but choose not to work? They have the education, they have the physical ability, and the intelligence. But they choose to sit in the chair and not try to get up and go learn. They choose to take the “I got a plant job, I got it made” route. I cannot fire people but I can give my honest review. I give plenty chance. By the time it escalates to that, I have had minimum of 2 personal, non recorded reviews and one recorded. I have only once, in 9 years at my position, had to recommend someone be terminated. I do everything I can to ensure their success. They don’t want to work. They want the money. They want the benefits. But they don’t want to put in the work required to maintain their position. FWIW, it is a very sought after position. If you can’t fathom why someone would choose not to work, it actually says a whole lot about your work ethic. Probably a good one.

The Bible actually lays out how clergy is to use the money given to the church to sustain themselves. It is not to be wasted, which is why it is up to us to properly vette the leadership we support.

As far as your example of helping someone with a flat in the desert. Without a doubt, I would stop to help. No matter what. They may just need a phone or may need help swapping it or a ride. But if I see someone in an Escalade wearing the latest fancy clothes with a flat outside a tire shop? Well, they got it. In the desert? I’ll stop and help but once they got help coming, they obviously can afford the repair. It’s a huge grey area, not so black and white.

I haven’t ran across your particular scenario. But I am confident in my choices driven by my faith.

But, no matter what I say, you’ve decided that I am not fair and discriminating against someone so trying to unmuddy these waters is pointless, I feel.

I appreciate your patience, which is why I continue to extend the same to you.

Let me attempt to "un-muddy these waters" of your, in my opinion, abstract thought process. The initial questions I asked you were what is the difference, in your mind, between someone who is poor and someone who chooses to be poor? You still have not fully answered that, you've merely stated that you think some folks (children, old, sick, etc) require others assistance, but I'm not sure how that deems them poor? Possibly you and I have different definitions of poor. You say you don't mind helping the folks who are poor, but if they choose to be poor you will not? Am I following correctly?

I then asked what someone being poor has to do with you helping them.
I also gave you a specific example of a scenario of helping someone, that of which you answered absolutely without a doubt you'd help them, unless it was a person in an Escalade wearing nice clothes in front of a tire shop? Am I following your responses correctly? So are you implying that a person wearing nice clothes driving an Escalade in the desert in the middle of nowhere blows a tire you wouldn't help them? Why did you change the scenario and add your own details? I didn't say anything about a tire shop, Escalade, or nice clothes? It seems to me you put alot of judgement into a person based largely on their material wealth. Do you think that mindset can breed a healthy society? Where did you learn to think that way?

I also asked, can you not fathom why someone would choose not to work? I reiterated the example the OP said, that some cultures believe in a caste and karma social system. I did not say anything about folks who have a job that do not live up to your standards for completing the task at hand. I'm talking about folks who choose not to participate in the work force. Do you understand there are folks who do not participate in the work force, who also do not seek your social systems assistance? These folks are generally poor/without money. Some, not all, beg, some steal, some live by there own wit without asking for a handout. There are also plenty of folks who do not work, who DO seek the social systems assistance, but that's a flawed system in my opinion, but you did not care to discuss the politics behind it so I won't.

I appreciate your I think, compliment, on my work ethic. I work when I see fit, to support myself, as I see fit.
 
No matter how I respond, you will continue to turn my words around. I implied nothing and as long as you continue to try to read between the lines of what I said, the muddy waters only get muddier. I’ve been forthcoming but, I’m done here. This is not a discussion, but a defense where you only want to prove a Christian wrong.

So I step back to my initial statement that’s started this. There are people out there who want help but don’t need it. Simple fact. It’s our job to help those who truly need it. If you can’t understand that, well, nothing I can say or do will convince you otherwise. It won’t worth walls of text and no matter what’s said, there are little corners and gray areas that can be exploited. It isn’t worth my time.
 
No matter how I respond, you will continue to turn my words around. I implied nothing and as long as you continue to try to read between the lines of what I said, the muddy waters only get muddier. I’ve been forthcoming but, I’m done here. This is not a discussion, but a defense where you only want to prove a Christian wrong.

So I step back to my initial statement that’s started this. There are people out there who want help but don’t need it. Simple fact. It’s our job to help those who truly need it. If you can’t understand that, well, nothing I can say or do will convince you otherwise. It won’t worth walls of text and no matter what’s said, there are little corners and gray areas that can be exploited. It isn’t worth my time.

The only direction I've turned your words are back at you. If you don't like them, reconsider saying them. You're welcome to refute anything I've said. Your being Christian isn't the slightest of interest to me in this conversation. You're a human, just like me.

I do agree with your statement of, "there are people out there who want help and do not need it." It is a relative opinion though.
 
So are you implying that a person wearing nice clothes driving an Escalade in the desert in the middle of nowhere blows a tire you wouldn't help them?.



He very clearly stated

“As far as your example of helping someone with a flat in the desert. Without a doubt, I would stop to help. No matter what. They may just need a phone or may need help swapping it or a ride. But if I see someone in an Escalade wearing the latest fancy clothes with a flat outside a tire shop? Well, they got it. In the desert? I’ll stop and help but once they got help coming, they obviously can afford the repair.”

I’m not putting words in his mouth; this is a direct quote from his post.

It comes down to this. We are supposed to help people that can’t help themselves. That’s why he suggested a difference in people that are genuinely poor and people that are perfectly capable of helping themselves but chose to not work and hope for handouts (poor)

That’s why he said that he would help the people in the desert if they were rich... no amount of money is gonna help you in the desert if you can’t get help.
 
Thank you, Richard. I thought I was very clear. Had me double checking myself even.

I thought the scenario I gave was pretty cut and dry, basically a yes or no answer. You're the one that added the rest of the details, and I'm not sure why. In any case I'm glad you'd stop, in some way shape or form.
 
It comes down to this. We are supposed to help people that can’t help themselves. That’s why he suggested a difference in people that are genuinely poor and people that are perfectly capable of helping themselves but chose to not work and hope for handouts (poor)
.

This sentiment is why I Included in my desert scenario, "are you going to ask them if they have a job before helping them?" The answer most obviously being no. My point to all this is -money isn't the only way to "help" someone.- if someone ASKS for help it's up to you individually to decide if you want to help. If a car blows a tire in the desert, you pull over and say "hey, need a hand?"
 
This sentiment is why I Included in my desert scenario, "are you going to ask them if they have a job before helping them?" The answer most obviously being no. My point to all this is -money isn't the only way to "help" someone.- if someone ASKS for help it's up to you individually to decide if you want to help. If a car blows a tire in the desert, you pull over and say "hey, need a hand?"

Your statement here is what I was trying to say actually. Everyone who needs help may need a different type of help. Yes, I’ll help the rich guy in the desert. And the poor guy buy a tire (I’ve helped someone buy a toothbrush once, so I threw in a snack). I’m not a great communicator, for sure. The rich guy don’t need help buying a tire. But he may not be able to change one. And yes, I’ll still help him there. Might even see if I can teach him how!
 
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