Do you believe, and more discussion.

[UffDa]

I think it's important to differentiate between believe and know.

Atheism/Theism refers to belief.
Agnostic, or gnostic, refers to knowledge or lack thereof. From the Greek Gnosis, typically applied to religious or philosophical matters.

An agnostic atheist is aware that they don't empirically know there is/isn't a God/Gods, but does not believe there is due to insufficient reason/evidence to do so.

Generally speaking, the controlling nature of religions shows the intent of them, to manipulate, influence and control a society or group of people. A very human thing indeed.

Religion is a great money maker. I live in a town of maybe 12,500. There are at least 10 churches. Most are in very nice buildings.

Just south of us is a huge Potter's House. They just finished a new building and they hold international bible conferences every year. I can't even imagine the tax free dollars they bring in.

 

[zxcvbjhngkbcvxcfbjbcx]

~ The World is a Mystery and Life is a Blessing ~

 

[Richard Coyle]

I was pointing out that Pascals wager, it seems to me, cannot be logically applied to just one religious belief structure - for example, christianity. The reasoning previously posted indicated it could.



Historically, the collapse of the Roman Empire left christianity to take advantage of its already developed power base, thanks to Constantine's selection of it as the empires sole religion, as a political and social means of unification and control.

Christianity cemented its power base by forcing people to turn away from anything that contradicted the strict beliefs it insisted on, and actively sought to destroy and ususrp other competing religions/beliefs.
As the Dark Ages ensued, and on through Medieval times, freethought and open minded inquiry was stringently suppressed by christianity.
We lost over a thousand years before this domination and stern restriction of the western worlds cultures slowly, step by step, was pushed aside in order to allow the development of knowledge, understanding, learning, free study, to continue in a manner similar to what was started by Greco-Roman civilization.

As the first millenium CE progressed, the Arab world became a repository of knowledge, the place where scholars and freethinkers went to study and learn, unhindered by christianity's denouncement of such. That lasted until the Islamic religions gained sufficient power to force their beliefs onto their societies.

Richard, I would have liked to put more time into those comments however I'm about to head off for another 12 hour night shift and could only post of the top of my head.

I welcome any further comments or questions.

I don’t think it’s ever right or beneficial to force Christianity on people, which is what happened with Constantine. It leads to corruption and uncommitted “Christians”. This corruption was clearly seen during the Dark Ages when the Catholic Church, like you said, suppressed free thought, for many reasons.
I agree with most, if not all, of what you said but one can’t judge Christianity based on what happened when it was forced on people.

Your premise of your “this is how christianity hindered society” post was based on a question of “what do you have to lose if you follow Pascal’s wager?” But you answered with an example of a time where Christianity was forced on people, which is not synonymous with real, true Christianity and the principles of Pascal’s wager.

Now I do think that Constantine making Christianity the only legal religion was bad. And I do think that Catholic Church in the Dark ages was deeply corrupt and definetly suppressed free thought and hindered societal advancement; but you can’t say that they honestly followed Pascal’s wager.

I hope that makes sense...

 

[Cursum Perficio]

I don’t think it’s ever right or beneficial to force Christianity on people, which is what happened with Constantine. It leads to corruption and uncommitted “Christians”. This corruption was clearly seen during the Dark Ages when the Catholic Church, like you said, suppressed free thought, for many reasons.
I agree with most, if not all, of what you said but one can’t judge Christianity based on what happened when it was forced on people.

Your premise of your “this is how christianity hindered society” post was based on a question of “what do you have to lose if you follow Pascal’s wager?” But you answered with an example of a time where Christianity was forced on people, which is not synonymous with real, true Christianity and the principles of Pascal’s wager.

Now I do think that Constantine making Christianity the only legal religion was bad. And I do think that Catholic Church in the Dark ages was deeply corrupt and definetly suppressed free thought and hindered societal advancement; but you can’t say that they honestly followed Pascal’s wager.

I hope that makes sense...

Thank you for the clarifying post Richard, it shows I phrased an earlier post poorly. My bad. I will try to explain myself more clearly.

I commented on Pascal’s wager which, based on my understanding of it, is a logically impossible proposition. I intended that as a discrete position, and am open to discussion on it.

A previous post promoting Pascal’s wager used the words “What do you have to lose”? My response “History shows what we have to lose…. if too many people subscribe to Pascal’s wager” is where I expressed my thoughts poorly and perhaps flippantly – I didn’t intend to connect Pascal’s wager to historical matters. I apologize for giving that wrong impression.

What I meant was history often shows what we have to lose by having too many people uncritically and collectively accepting (any) religious doctrine, via Pascals wager or any other means, forced or otherwise.

Pascal’s wager is a recruiting method, using faulty logic and playing on natural human fears. Get someone in the door, so to speak, and exposed to further religious indoctrination.
And if I may expand a little on “What do you have to lose”? with Pascals wager - if there is no God, one can lose happiness and fulfillment in the only life they get.

Of course, religion doesn’t always cause that. But it’s easy enough to find examples, current and historical, of religious strictures trapping people in loveless and unfulfilling marriages, of causing segregation, familial separation, imposing child indoctrination, unwarranted feelings of guilt, and worse situations across a spectrum as varied as the religions and cultures of the world.


Pascal and an atheist die and must explain themselves to an omniscient God.
Pascal: Figured I’d just fake it in case you were real.
Atheist: You gave me no verifiable evidence to work with, so I went with my intelligence and rationality which, apparently, you gave me.

If God smokes the atheist and not Pascal, seems to me that is not a just and fair God.

 

[Prester John]

Thank you for the clarifying post Richard, it shows I phrased an earlier post poorly. My bad. I will try to explain myself more clearly.

I commented on Pascal’s wager which, based on my understanding of it, is a logically impossible proposition. I intended that as a discrete position, and am open to discussion on it.

A previous post promoting Pascal’s wager used the words “What do you have to lose”? My response “History shows what we have to lose…. if too many people subscribe to Pascal’s wager” is where I expressed my thoughts poorly and perhaps flippantly – I didn’t intend to connect Pascal’s wager to historical matters. I apologize for giving that wrong impression.

What I meant was history often shows what we have to lose by having too many people uncritically and collectively accepting (any) religious doctrine, via Pascals wager or any other means, forced or otherwise.

Pascal’s wager is a recruiting method, using faulty logic and playing on natural human fears. Get someone in the door, so to speak, and exposed to further religious indoctrination.
And if I may expand a little on “What do you have to lose”? with Pascals wager - if there is no God, one can lose happiness and fulfillment in the only life they get.

Of course, religion doesn’t always cause that. But it’s easy enough to find examples, current and historical, of religious strictures trapping people in loveless and unfulfilling marriages, of causing segregation, familial separation, imposing child indoctrination, unwarranted feelings of guilt, and worse situations across a spectrum as varied as the religions and cultures of the world.


Pascal and an atheist die and must explain themselves to an omniscient God.
Pascal: Figured I’d just fake it in case you were real.
Atheist: You gave me no verifiable evidence to work with, so I went with my intelligence and rationality which, apparently, you gave me.

If God smokes the atheist and not Pascal, seems to me that is not a just and fair God.

I am not an "expert" on Pascal, but have read some of his Pensées. Pascal was not faking his faith in God, nor was he encouraging others to "fake it," in my opinion. He was encouraging others to believe in God because He is real.

I suppose the "wager" is interesting, but I would prefer to appeal to Scripture. The Bible says that "the heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament sheweth his handiwork" (Psalm 19), and St. Paul argues in his first epistle to the Romans that those that disbelieve in God are rejecting the clear evidence all about them, and says that they "are without excuse."

In your example, Pascal would never utter the words you ascribe to him--he would, I imagine, simply fall down and worship God. And I suspect the atheist would be quivering in terror because he knows he deserves what he's going to get--God did give him a conscience, after all, no matter how he tries to ignore it.

 

[UffDa]

I gots a question. Why do those who believe, believe? I am assuming that you were taught to believe. I assume that you didn't just wake up one morning a true believer.

Let me tell you a little about me. I am Jewish. My mother was not very religious. My father thought religion was just superstition. BUT, I was forced to go to Hebrew school
and have a Bar Mitzvah. The truth is that I never believed. It all seemed like nothing more than mumbo-jumbo. It still does.

In my work at various companies like Delco and Raytheon, I knew a few born agains and others who spent every spare minute reading the bible. The born agains were
the most interesting. None were particularly religious when I first met them, but they were "converted" or recruited by someone they met at work. IMHO, they were the
type of person who wanted to believe for whatever reason. They were the type who could be persuaded to do almost anything. If you asked them why, they had no answer.

 

[Richard Coyle]

Thank you for the clarifying post Richard, it shows I phrased an earlier post poorly. My bad. I will try to explain myself more clearly.

I commented on Pascal’s wager which, based on my understanding of it, is a logically impossible proposition. I intended that as a discrete position, and am open to discussion on it.

A previous post promoting Pascal’s wager used the words “What do you have to lose”? My response “History shows what we have to lose…. if too many people subscribe to Pascal’s wager” is where I expressed my thoughts poorly and perhaps flippantly – I didn’t intend to connect Pascal’s wager to historical matters. I apologize for giving that wrong impression.

What I meant was history often shows what we have to lose by having too many people uncritically and collectively accepting (any) religious doctrine, via Pascals wager or any other means, forced or otherwise.

Pascal’s wager is a recruiting method, using faulty logic and playing on natural human fears. Get someone in the door, so to speak, and exposed to further religious indoctrination.
And if I may expand a little on “What do you have to lose”? with Pascals wager - if there is no God, one can lose happiness and fulfillment in the only life they get.

Of course, religion doesn’t always cause that. But it’s easy enough to find examples, current and historical, of religious strictures trapping people in loveless and unfulfilling marriages, of causing segregation, familial separation, imposing child indoctrination, unwarranted feelings of guilt, and worse situations across a spectrum as varied as the religions and cultures of the world.


Pascal and an atheist die and must explain themselves to an omniscient God.
Pascal: Figured I’d just fake it in case you were real.
Atheist: You gave me no verifiable evidence to work with, so I went with my intelligence and rationality which, apparently, you gave me.

If God smokes the atheist and not Pascal, seems to me that is not a just and fair God.

Thank you for replying. I will mull over what has been said will post again. But first, I agree with you in the fact that I think Pascal’s wager isn’t the best solution and can be misleading, but Pascal is not saying that we should fake it, because if we did, God would know. And his argument is not driven by fear, it is rather driven by logic.


But you said that if one lives as if there is a God, they stand to lose happiness and fulfillment. I can’t think of a life more happy and fulfilling life than one that consists of, helping and loving people, living a righteous life, and telling others of God’s great love. Which is what God has told us to do. Nobody thinks that Christians, as a whole are crooked. It’s clear that Christians want to live a good life and do what is right by others, obey the laws etc... but you say that if we live like this, we stand to lose happiness and fulfillment. This doesn’t make sense to me, and I would like to hear your thoughts on it.

I’m speaking for Christianity, and specifically Protestantism.

 

[Prester John]

I gots a question. Why do those who believe, believe? I am assuming that you were taught to believe. I assume that you didn't just wake up one morning a true believer.

Let me tell you a little about me. I am Jewish. My mother was not very religious. My father thought religion was just superstition. BUT, I was forced to go to Hebrew school
and have a Bar Mitzvah. The truth is that I never believed. It all seemed like nothing more than mumbo-jumbo. It still does.

In my work at various companies like Delco and Raytheon, I knew a few born agains and others who spent every spare minute reading the bible. The born agains were
the most interesting. None were particularly religious when I first met them, but they were "converted" or recruited by someone they met at work. IMHO, they were the
type of person who wanted to believe for whatever reason. They were the type who could be persuaded to do almost anything. If you asked them why, they had no answer.

Good question. I will answer for myself later tonight when I have more time.

 

[SVTFreak]

I gots a question. Why do those who believe, believe? I am assuming that you were taught to believe. I assume that you didn't just wake up one morning a true believer.

Let me tell you a little about me. I am Jewish. My mother was not very religious. My father thought religion was just superstition. BUT, I was forced to go to Hebrew school
and have a Bar Mitzvah. The truth is that I never believed. It all seemed like nothing more than mumbo-jumbo. It still does.

In my work at various companies like Delco and Raytheon, I knew a few born agains and others who spent every spare minute reading the bible. The born agains were
the most interesting. None were particularly religious when I first met them, but they were "converted" or recruited by someone they met at work. IMHO, they were the
type of person who wanted to believe for whatever reason. They were the type who could be persuaded to do almost anything. If you asked them why, they had no answer.

Good question that i wish was asked more often.

I was raised catholic, and always have been blessed, but I was always doubtful. Something always felt wrong. I believed but was missing a lot. Even in my (limited at the time) reading, I had so many questions. I drifted away for years. To the point of didn’t bother, didn’t think about it. So, about 6 years ago, my wife left. I woke up one morning and needed something. Loaded my baby girl up (I have full custody and was single dad) and went to the church that I still attend. I sat in the back and hid. But I felt at home and felt like something cold inside of me was being pushed out. So I kept going. Over the next 6 years, I slowly opened up and put faith even in areas I used to think was silly. If that place could warm my heart, what else could happen? So I opened up and have it a chance. I met my future wife and she started coming with me. I started trying to live my life like God wanted and as I did, he revealed himself to me. But I still thought some of it was silly, for lack of better words. As time went on, I began to trust some of those “silly” things, and God moved when I did. I saw things happen in my life that I had only heard of before and thought “yeah, that just weird, God dont work that way”. I’ll give a couple examples. In 2016, 6 weeks after I married my wife, our house flooded. The day before that, we found out she was pregnant (we where not trying, we where 43!). I was distraught, lost and at a low point. My family of 4, pregnant, very sick wife were living in a single bedroom at her aunts. It took me a week to break down. I reached that low point in church, during a particular song. I broke down right there. How could I do all this, unexpectedly. But I heard that small voice, the voice of reason. Some call it conscious. It’s hard to discern from your conscious but it’s there. God told me to trust him. I cried like a baby. Grown ass man. But I trusted him. The next week, I knelt down and said “God, you know i don’t like change. But you’ve now given me a new home (eventually), a new family, a new baby. If you are changing anything else in my life, please do it now so I only have to get over this once”. The very next day, I found out that my boss was moving me to a new area I had no desire to work in. Long story short, God gave me a new house, new family, new job, and a new purpose in life that month. I’m better off and home more than I ever have been. I learned to trust him.

One more for you. In august, my son (yeah the baby from above) has MSRA cyst in his butt. They cut it out, no problem. We gave him bleach bathes and all. About 2 months later (in october), we woke up on Sunday morning and he was complaining about his leg. We could see it was red but didn’t look bad. We got to church and saw it under the bright lights in the class and it was bad. Looked just like the other one. And it got bad FAST. So I brought her home to take him to the ER. I went back to church cause I was serving that day (I help out the security team). During worship, the pastors let people come up to pray for health concerns. I thought “well, let me try it. It sure can’t hurt”. So I went up and our pastor from Africa was in. He prayed for my son. Meanwhile, the doctor say it’s same msra staph but not bad enough to lance yet so they give him antibiotics and send him home. Well, boy won’t take them. Spits it out. Even when he don’t, he pukes it right up. Not a single drop gets in. That evening, the infection looks terrible. The next morning, wife gets up and it’s not as bad. She dresses him and takes to normal pediatrician. 2 hours later when they get there, it’s almost gone. Doc looks and says it’s nothing. 24 hours later, 12 hours after it was huge, red and infected, it’s almost gone. Nothing was applied except a bandaid so he wouldn’t bother it. I learned that prayer works. It’s not silly. In the last 6 years, there’s been several things like this. Things that prove to me that he is there. Watching over us as long as you have faith and accept his guidance and will. And it helps to do your part. Vette your church against be Bible well to ensure the pastor is following the Bible, spending funds wisely, and expanding the kingdom. It’s tough to sort out the intricacies of the Bible, but it’s worth it to understand. Worst case, you are helping people.

I know I’ve typed too much already, and I’m terrible at conveying stories lol. But I tried. The key is you have to take a deep breath and a leap of faith. Literally. That faith in him is the hardest step to take but he makes it worth it.

 

[Richard Coyle]

Good question that i wish was asked more often.

I was raised catholic, and always have been blessed, but I was always doubtful. Something always felt wrong. I believed but was missing a lot. Even in my (limited at the time) reading, I had so many questions. I drifted away for years. To the point of didn’t bother, didn’t think about it. So, about 6 years ago, my wife left. I woke up one morning and needed something. Loaded my baby girl up (I have full custody and was single dad) and went to the church that I still attend. I sat in the back and hid. But I felt at home and felt like something cold inside of me was being pushed out. So I kept going. Over the next 6 years, I slowly opened up and put faith even in areas I used to think was silly. If that place could warm my heart, what else could happen? So I opened up and have it a chance. I met my future wife and she started coming with me. I started trying to live my life like God wanted and as I did, he revealed himself to me. But I still thought some of it was silly, for lack of better words. As time went on, I began to trust some of those “silly” things, and God moved when I did. I saw things happen in my life that I had only heard of before and thought “yeah, that just weird, God dont work that way”. I’ll give a couple examples. In 2016, 6 weeks after I married my wife, our house flooded. The day before that, we found out she was pregnant (we where not trying, we where 43!). I was distraught, lost and at a low point. My family of 4, pregnant, very sick wife were living in a single bedroom at her aunts. It took me a week to break down. I reached that low point in church, during a particular song. I broke down right there. How could I do all this, unexpectedly. But I heard that small voice, the voice of reason. Some call it conscious. It’s hard to discern from your conscious but it’s there. God told me to trust him. I cried like a baby. Grown ass man. But I trusted him. The next week, I knelt down and said “God, you know i don’t like change. But you’ve now given me a new home (eventually), a new family, a new baby. If you are changing anything else in my life, please do it now so I only have to get over this once”. The very next day, I found out that my boss was moving me to a new area I had no desire to work in. Long story short, God gave me a new house, new family, new job, and a new purpose in life that month. I’m better off and home more than I ever have been. I learned to trust him.

One more for you. In august, my son (yeah the baby from above) has MSRA cyst in his butt. They cut it out, no problem. We gave him bleach bathes and all. About 2 months later (in october), we woke up on Sunday morning and he was complaining about his leg. We could see it was red but didn’t look bad. We got to church and saw it under the bright lights in the class and it was bad. Looked just like the other one. And it got bad FAST. So I brought her home to take him to the ER. I went back to church cause I was serving that day (I help out the security team). During worship, the pastors let people come up to pray for health concerns. I thought “well, let me try it. It sure can’t hurt”. So I went up and our pastor from Africa was in. He prayed for my son. Meanwhile, the doctor say it’s same msra staph but not bad enough to lance yet so they give him antibiotics and send him home. Well, boy won’t take them. Spits it out. Even when he don’t, he pukes it right up. Not a single drop gets in. That evening, the infection looks terrible. The next morning, wife gets up and it’s not as bad. She dresses him and takes to normal pediatrician. 2 hours later when they get there, it’s almost gone. Doc looks and says it’s nothing. 24 hours later, 12 hours after it was huge, red and infected, it’s almost gone. Nothing was applied except a bandaid so he wouldn’t bother it. I learned that prayer works. It’s not silly. In the last 6 years, there’s been several things like this. Things that prove to me that he is there. Watching over us as long as you have faith and accept his guidance and will. And it helps to do your part. Vette your church against be Bible well to ensure the pastor is following the Bible, spending funds wisely, and expanding the kingdom. It’s tough to sort out the intricacies of the Bible, but it’s worth it to understand. Worst case, you are helping people.

I know I’ve typed too much already, and I’m terrible at conveying stories lol. But I tried. The key is you have to take a deep breath and a leap of faith. Literally. That faith in him is the hardest step to take but he makes it worth it.

A like is not enough. Thank you for sharing this. My heart was warmed reading it.

 

[Prester John]

I gots a question. Why do those who believe, believe? I am assuming that you were taught to believe. I assume that you didn't just wake up one morning a true believer.

Let me tell you a little about me. I am Jewish. My mother was not very religious. My father thought religion was just superstition. BUT, I was forced to go to Hebrew school
and have a Bar Mitzvah. The truth is that I never believed. It all seemed like nothing more than mumbo-jumbo. It still does.

In my work at various companies like Delco and Raytheon, I knew a few born agains and others who spent every spare minute reading the bible. The born agains were
the most interesting. None were particularly religious when I first met them, but they were "converted" or recruited by someone they met at work. IMHO, they were the
type of person who wanted to believe for whatever reason. They were the type who could be persuaded to do almost anything. If you asked them why, they had no answer.

Well, I will answer for myself, of course. I will try to be succinct, but that's not my strong point!

I was raised Catholic. I cannot remember not believing when I was young. I was taught early by my mother, for which I am grateful. Not just the New Testament, but about the Creation, Adam & Eve and the Fall of Man, Noah's ark and the flood, Abraham & Isaac, the Exodus, Ten Commandments, David & Goliath, Samson & Delilah, Jonah & the whale, etc. I was taught this before I started school, and I believed with all my heart. Until I was about 17. Maybe there are a number of reasons: bad company, bad books, bad movies, seeing superstitious beliefs & practices, etc. But there came a point where I said that I didn't really believe anymore, and I stopped going to Mass. It hurt my mother, but I didn't want to go if I didn't believe. I didn't lose faith in God--I can't really imagine what being an atheist is like--but I stopped believing the Catholic religion. I did some searching--reading about Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. Nothing clicked, so I think I concluded that there must be a God, but maybe he is unknowable in this life.

A friend at work mentioned that everything we need is contained in the Bible. It has the answers to all the big questions. So I bought a Bible. And started reading it. Oh, I had read parts of the New Testament when I was younger, but I started reading the Bible in earnest, starting with Genesis. That was over 40 years ago, and I have been reading it daily ever since. But I'm getting ahead of myself. When I was about 18 I had what some call a "conversion experience" (what many Protestants call being "born again", although I think that terminology is not quite accurate; as a Catholic, I believe we are born again when we are baptized). I became a Protestant for over 20 years, spending most of it as a Presbyterian (not the mainline liberal church, but smaller, conservative denominations, like the Orthodox Presbyterian Church). I found truth in the Bible, which is the living Word of God. It is not just a collection of books written by men and compiled. God wrote it using men. Anyway I put my faith in God again and have not looked back. (In my early 40s, I did return to the Catholic Church--long story!--but I consider anyone who truly loves Christ to be my brother. I have a lot more in common with a conservative Baptist than with a liberal Catholic, for example.)

Something to consider: the Bible has hundreds--I think over 300--of prophecies about Christ, all of which were fulfilled, except those pertaining to the Second Coming. Right after the Fall, in Genesis chapter 3, God promises a Redeemer. Other prophecies: that Christ would be born of a virgin; that He would be born in Bethlehem; that He would be from the tribe of Judah, and the lineage of David; that he would live in Galilee; that he would ride into Jerusalem on a colt, the foal of an ass; that he would be betrayed; that he would be scourged and crucified; that his bones would not be broken; that his hands and feet would be pierced; that they would cast lots for his garment; that he would rise from the dead; that the Gospel would be preached to all the world; etc. Too many prophecies to name here, but you could look it up. Read Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22, two of the most important messianic passages of the Bible. Also, the sacrifices and the priesthood all pointed to Christ. He is the Passover Lamb, the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world, as John the Baptist pointed out. He is our Atonement. He is our Great High Priest. There is not a part of the Bible that is not about Christ. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. The Gospel in short is found in John 3:16: For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosover believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. That is the theme of the Bible. I could go on and on, I suppose, but I hope you get my point.

Also, I have seen God working in my life, and in history. And I have hope. As St. Paul said, "If in this life only we have faith in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." I believe God will come to judge the world at the last day. I believe history has a happy ending. My duty now is to love God and to love my neighbor. I try my best.

Anyway, that's a short answer to your question.

 

[Ajack60]

Christ is the center and heart of the Bible.
The Old Testament is an account of a Nation. The New Testament is an account of a Man.
The Nation was founded and nurtured of God to bring the Man into the world.
His appearance on the earth is the Central Event of all history. The Old Testament sets the stage for it. The New Testament describes it.
Reference, Halley’s Bible Handbook

 

[Cursum Perficio]

I am not an "expert" on Pascal, but have read some of his Pensées. Pascal was not faking his faith in God, nor was he encouraging others to "fake it," in my opinion. He was encouraging others to believe in God because He is real.

I suppose the "wager" is interesting, but I would prefer to appeal to Scripture. The Bible says that "the heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament sheweth his handiwork" (Psalm 19), and St. Paul argues in his first epistle to the Romans that those that disbelieve in God are rejecting the clear evidence all about them, and says that they "are without excuse."

In your example, Pascal would never utter the words you ascribe to him--he would, I imagine, simply fall down and worship God. And I suspect the atheist would be quivering in terror because he knows he deserves what he's going to get--God did give him a conscience, after all, no matter how he tries to ignore it.

Hello Vince. My apologies for not being clear, may I point out that I was not characterizing Blaise Pascal himself, I was characterizing the 'Pascals wager' argument, as it is typically presented.

I think it's important to view Pascals wager from a non-believers perspective, as a question for rational consideration.

Applied at face value, Pascals wager would require one to believe in all gods, in case one of the 'others' is the real deity. That is the very essence of Pascals wager - 'believe, just in case'.
A person who decided to believe only in for example, Yahweh, just in case he was the one true god, after dying would be quivering in terror to find themself facing Vishnu or Aten.
Because each religion usually excludes the beliefs of other religions, it is impossible to believe in all deities concurrently.
Ergo, Pascal's wager is a logically impossible proposition.

For a theist to propose Pascal's wager then add 'the god I believe in is the real god, never mind all those others' is to invalidate the argument even as it's being proposed, and revealing itself as a means of recruitment effective on people who lack critical thinking skills, and are susceptible to religious indoctrination. This occurs even with well meaning theists who honestly believe they are 'saving' someone.

Such is my understanding of Pascals wager at this point in time. I'm open to any rational criticism on how I view the subject.

May I point out that your comment "... the atheist would be quivering in terror because he knows he deserves what he's going to get--God did give him a conscience, after all, no matter how he tries to ignore it" is extremely presuppositional.

That people have what we call a 'conscience', a sense of right and wrong, is a natural phenomena, a result of natural processes, of our past, our inherent and inherited nature as Homo Sapiens. Evidence, observation, study, that can be found, read, and understood, clearly and increasingly shows that.

The age old hypothesis that our conscience and morality are provided by, and are therefore evidence of, God has no such evidential basis. It rests on theological and philosophical arguments, that become increasing invalid over time as our knowledge and understanding grows.

 

[Prester John]

Hello Vince. My apologies for not being clear, may I point out that I was not characterizing Blaise Pascal himself, I was characterizing the 'Pascals wager' argument, as it is typically presented.

I think it's important to view Pascals wager from a non-believers perspective, as a question for rational consideration.

Applied at face value, Pascals wager would require one to believe in all gods, in case one of the 'others' is the real deity. That is the very essence of Pascals wager - 'believe, just in case'.
A person who decided to believe only in for example, Yahweh, just in case he was the one true god, after dying would be quivering in terror to find themself facing Vishnu or Aten.
Because each religion usually excludes the beliefs of other religions, it is impossible to believe in all deities concurrently.
Ergo, Pascal's wager is a logically impossible proposition.

For a theist to propose Pascal's wager then add 'the god I believe in is the real god, never mind all those others' is to invalidate the argument even as it's being proposed, and revealing itself as a means of recruitment effective on people who lack critical thinking skills, and are susceptible to religious indoctrination. This occurs even with well meaning theists who honestly believe they are 'saving' someone.

Such is my understanding of Pascals wager at this point in time. I'm open to any rational criticism on how I view the subject.

May I point out that your comment "... the atheist would be quivering in terror because he knows he deserves what he's going to get--God did give him a conscience, after all, no matter how he tries to ignore it" is extremely presuppositional.

That people have what we call a 'conscience', a sense of right and wrong, is a natural phenomena, a result of natural processes, of our past, our inherent and inherited nature as Homo Sapiens. Evidence, observation, study, that can be found, read, and understood, clearly and increasingly shows that.

The age old hypothesis that our conscience and morality are provided by, and are therefore evidence of, God has no such evidential basis. It rests on theological and philosophical arguments, that become increasing invalid over time as our knowledge and understanding grows.

Well, I shall read this again tomorrow. Just had a couple of martinis. But it seems that we are on different wave lengths! I don't know about "age old hypotheses". That we have consciences is not only taught in the Bible, but I know it from experience and observation on a daily basis. It's a "natural phenomenon" because nature's God has deemed it so. I do not subscribe to "Darwinism", by the way. God created us and all things a few thousand years ago. Man is special because he is created in God's image. The four last things are death, judgment, heaven, and hell. We must "deal with it."

 

[Cursum Perficio]

Well, I shall read this again tomorrow. Just had a couple of martinis. But it seems that we are on different wave lengths! I don't know about "age old hypotheses". That we have consciences is not only taught in the Bible, but I know it from experience and observation on a daily basis. It's a "natural phenomenon" because nature's God has deemed it so. I do not subscribe to "Darwinism", by the way. God created us and all things a few thousand years ago. Man is special because he is created in God's image. The four last things are death, judgment, heaven, and hell. We must "deal with it."

Yes sir, different wave lengths is a fair assessment.
That is what makes the dialogue challenging, and I appreciate that we can offer different, even opposing, thoughts.

 

[Cursum Perficio]

Thank you for replying. I will mull over what has been said will post again. But first, I agree with you in the fact that I think Pascal’s wager isn’t the best solution and can be misleading, but Pascal is not saying that we should fake it, because if we did, God would know. And his argument is not driven by fear, it is rather driven by logic.


But you said that if one lives as if there is a God, they stand to lose happiness and fulfillment. I can’t think of a life more happy and fulfilling life than one that consists of, helping and loving people, living a righteous life, and telling others of God’s great love. Which is what God has told us to do. Nobody thinks that Christians, as a whole are crooked. It’s clear that Christians want to live a good life and do what is right by others, obey the laws etc... but you say that if we live like this, we stand to lose happiness and fulfillment. This doesn’t make sense to me, and I would like to hear your thoughts on it.

I’m speaking for Christianity, and specifically Protestantism.

I will try to clarify what I think, what I meant.

I would not say of Christians "that if we live like this, we stand to lose happiness and fulfillment". What I meant was that the wide spectrum of religious beliefs in general, including Christianity, have rules and methods and doctrines and dogma that can, and for some people do, cause real strife. Such strife can and has ranged from 'my wife won't have sex with me in case she gets pregnant and we are not allowed to use contraceptives, and masturbation is a sin' to historical genocide, and everything in between. This is not conjecture on my part.

I have Christian friends and family (mostly Pentecostal) that are wonderful people, and lead happy fulfilled lives. And some that are not and do not. Just like the non-christian people I know.
Religious belief is not a pre-requisite to personal happiness. Some people find happiness that way, some find happiness without religion. Sadly, some people don't find real happiness regardless of what they do or believe.

The fundamental constant affecting peoples state of happiness, is people themselves, human nature, not religious belief. Religious belief is just one thing that can affect and play on human nature.
I think it would be a fantastic change in the world if all those who believe and live happy and fulfilled lives as a religious person would recognize that.
Unfortunately this doesn't usually happen because religion, including Christianity, is exclusive and divisive by it's very nature. There must be good and bad, right and wrong, light and dark, the saved and the damned. Them and us. And when a Divine Mandate is actually believed to be real, rationality goes out the window and Them and Us can get really ugly. This has been amply demonstrated by Christianity in the past, and Islam currently.

A problem I see, is that today's people tend to see Christianity very differently to people that lived under it's past hegemony.
Just because our western civilization has advanced enough in the past few centuries to stop the nasty self perpetuating and self aggrandizing shenanigans that Christianity was responsible for over more than a thousand years, doesn't mean that the underlying causes and motivations that lead it to cruelty back then aren't still in place, still present in christian dogma and doctrine, still able to affect the constant of human nature.

Currently, in my country, legislation is being proposed and discussed on the subject of euthanasia. Such a difficult subject for our society to consider. Christian groups are opposed it in any form, and when their religious stance failed in much of the public eye, they resorted to hiding their religious motivations, creating separate organizations to publicly push whatever other arguments and propaganda they can find, often poorly.
I am witnessing Christians trying to impose their religious beliefs onto our society in deceitful ways, motivated by nothing more than their particular brand of superstitious belief.
The same thing happened with accepting same sex marriages and legalizing prostitution here. Religion acts to cloud the picture and retard societies trying to work through difficult societal issues as we try to progress in the best way we can.

I've typed a bit much maybe.

 

[UffDa]

Time for a religious joke.

A very old monk was studying and translating ancient Christian scrolls when suddenly he started yelling incoherently and pounding on his desk.
The other monks were very concerned and gathered around him. The abbot was called and holding the old monk's shoulder, asked him what the
problem was? The old monk looked up and shouted, "Celebrate! The word is celebrate!"

 

[SVTFreak]

I will try to clarify what I think, what I meant.

I would not say of Christians "that if we live like this, we stand to lose happiness and fulfillment". What I meant was that the wide spectrum of religious beliefs in general, including Christianity, have rules and methods and doctrines and dogma that can, and for some people do, cause real strife. Such strife can and has ranged from 'my wife won't have sex with me in case she gets pregnant and we are not allowed to use contraceptives, and masturbation is a sin' to historical genocide, and everything in between. This is not conjecture on my part.

I have Christian friends and family (mostly Pentecostal) that are wonderful people, and lead happy fulfilled lives. And some that are not and do not. Just like the non-christian people I know.
Religious belief is not a pre-requisite to personal happiness. Some people find happiness that way, some find happiness without religion. Sadly, some people don't find real happiness regardless of what they do or believe.

The fundamental constant affecting peoples state of happiness, is people themselves, human nature, not religious belief. Religious belief is just one thing that can affect and play on human nature.
I think it would be a fantastic change in the world if all those who believe and live happy and fulfilled lives as a religious person would recognize that.
Unfortunately this doesn't usually happen because religion, including Christianity, is exclusive and divisive by it's very nature. There must be good and bad, right and wrong, light and dark, the saved and the damned. Them and us. And when a Divine Mandate is actually believed to be real, rationality goes out the window and Them and Us can get really ugly. This has been amply demonstrated by Christianity in the past, and Islam currently.

A problem I see, is that today's people tend to see Christianity very differently to people that lived under it's past hegemony.
Just because our western civilization has advanced enough in the past few centuries to stop the nasty self perpetuating and self aggrandizing shenanigans that Christianity was responsible for over more than a thousand years, doesn't mean that the underlying causes and motivations that lead it to cruelty back then aren't still in place, still present in christian dogma and doctrine, still able to affect the constant of human nature.

Currently, in my country, legislation is being proposed and discussed on the subject of euthanasia. Such a difficult subject for our society to consider. Christian groups are opposed it in any form, and when their religious stance failed in much of the public eye, they resorted to hiding their religious motivations, creating separate organizations to publicly push whatever other arguments and propaganda they can find, often poorly.
I am witnessing Christians trying to impose their religious beliefs onto our society in deceitful ways, motivated by nothing more than their particular brand of superstitious belief.
The same thing happened with accepting same sex marriages and legalizing prostitution here. Religion acts to cloud the picture and retard societies trying to work through difficult societal issues as we try to progress in the best way we can.

I've typed a bit much maybe.

I don’t have time to go point for point on yours but I will say, many parts I actually agree with you.

Religious belief is not a pre-requisite to personal happiness. Some people find happiness that way, some find happiness without religion. Sadly, some people don't find real happiness regardless of what they do or believe.

I agree wholly with this. But I can say that 85% of the people that come through our church find peace. And that is just as important as happiness.

On your note about historical acts done by Christians (think the crusades, etc). I struggled with that for a long time. The people then where forced to be Christians by their kings. They still did what they wanted to do and just used Christianity to justify it. Nowhere in the New Testament does Christ or his leadership following his departure, even insinuate that those sort of things should be done. His whole gospel is that of love, not violence. Those people where barbarians who where forced to say “I’m Christian”, not Christian by choice (and that choice is actually important to God. He wants you to choose to be his). As far as today, you are right. Christians do try to invade politics to further their beliefs. That’s no different than, say, gay/lesbian etc attempting to do the same thing. They want their own beliefs furthered. There are Christians who push that because of their hatred for such, but there are as many who push because of their love for others and desire to try to save them. They don’t know another way, not realize that an individual has to willingly come to Christianity. As far as the assisted suicide, a proper Christian is dead set against it and will do anything to prevent someone from trying to take their own life. But they should also be doing everything they can to help and support those who they save from that end. I realize that there are cases where people are ready to end it in some cases (terminal for example), and care not to get into that discussion as I don’t have the answers or enough knowledge to even debate it, but I just wanted to use your example to show why they do that. Right or wrong, they are trying to help people live, both physically and spiritually.

Such a difficult subject for our society to consider.

That is an understatement of a lifetime. I know I am not able to debate it. Abortion is the same type of extremely difficult discussion. Probably the two most complicated discussions and political topics. And I feel, in the US anyway, both sides have it wrong and argue for and against for the wrong reasons.

 

[Cursum Perficio]

I don’t have time to go point for point on yours but I will say, many parts I actually agree with you.



I agree wholly with this. But I can say that 85% of the people that come through our church find peace. And that is just as important as happiness.

On your note about historical acts done by Christians (think the crusades, etc). I struggled with that for a long time. The people then where forced to be Christians by their kings. They still did what they wanted to do and just used Christianity to justify it. Nowhere in the New Testament does Christ or his leadership following his departure, even insinuate that those sort of things should be done. His whole gospel is that of love, not violence. Those people where barbarians who where forced to say “I’m Christian”, not Christian by choice (and that choice is actually important to God. He wants you to choose to be his). As far as today, you are right. Christians do try to invade politics to further their beliefs. That’s no different than, say, gay/lesbian etc attempting to do the same thing. They want their own beliefs furthered. There are Christians who push that because of their hatred for such, but there are as many who push because of their love for others and desire to try to save them. They don’t know another way, not realize that an individual has to willingly come to Christianity. As far as the assisted suicide, a proper Christian is dead set against it and will do anything to prevent someone from trying to take their own life. But they should also be doing everything they can to help and support those who they save from that end. I realize that there are cases where people are ready to end it in some cases (terminal for example), and care not to get into that discussion as I don’t have the answers or enough knowledge to even debate it, but I just wanted to use your example to show why they do that. Right or wrong, they are trying to help people live, both physically and spiritually.



That is an understatement of a lifetime. I know I am not able to debate it. Abortion is the same type of extremely difficult discussion. Probably the two most complicated discussions and political topics. And I feel, in the US anyway, both sides have it wrong and argue for and against for the wrong reasons.

Thank you for the reponse SVT.

I'm glad to hear your church is successful in helping people to find peace in their lives. My mothers church is quite similar in our (small) community.
However, the question I see there is, do churches like that benefit people because Yahweh and the Christian story as per the New Testament are real and true? Or some other sociological or psychological reasons?

I think that's a valid question for a few reasons. For example, in countries where other religions are dominant, be it Hindu, Islam, Judaism or whatever, these places also have their version of churches and religious parts of their communities that can and do provide the same kind of support for people as we both see in Christian communities.
All them different Gods and Saviors can't be real and true at the same time. Seems to me other factors are at play that likely have a more natural basis and are very much worthy of consideration before invoking, say, a holy ghost.

Christians do try to invade politics to further their beliefs. That’s no different than, say, gay/lesbian etc attempting to do the same thing. They want their own beliefs furthered.

This comment doesn't seem correct to me. In that example, Christians are trying to impose their faith based religious beliefs on the rest of society, beliefs that are harmful to LGBT people specifically.
LGBT people are seeking acceptance within the wider community, for who they naturally are.
Seems to me that's 2 quite different things.

Yes I agree, the assisted dying and abortion debates are hugely important issues, and as such I have nowhere near enough understanding to weigh in on them.
What I do believe is that religious views on those subjects should have no input whatsoever to those public and legislative debates, as they have no valid evidential, objective or rational basis, regardless of how sincerely believers consider themselves to be right.

Right or wrong, they are trying to help people live, both physically and spiritually.

Yes, I also see that, the sincere Christian that is honestly applying their beliefs, genuinely thinking they are working to 'save' someone. I have no doubt of the sincerity of belief and good intent of such Christians, and know some myself.

Speaking for myself, I have taken the time to gain an objective understanding, at least as best I reasonably can, of the formation, history and development of Christianity, its beliefs and Canon. That has lead me to the conclusion that the fundamental Christian story as presented in the NT is not historically true. Among other things.

Now if I, an average blue collar guy, can do that, I find myself thinking it irresponsible for believing Christians to not make a similar objective effort, and instead just go for the 'faith' option. Particularly if they intend to engage on important societal issues.

 

[Richard Coyle]

LGBT people are seeking acceptance within the wider community, for who they naturally are.

I will let more apt explainers comment on the rest of your post, but I found this ironic.