Does anyone use paper wheels on high end kitchen cutlery?

W

worshipNtribute

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
688
I need some way to sharpen my kitchen knives from time to time. I'm not a professional chef and I don't cook very often, but it'd be for 5-6 kitchen knives + 6 steak knives every couple of months. I originally bought a king 1000 waterstone just to try out, and it's good, but I'm not getting 'razor' sharp edges. They're decent for cutting, but my skills aren't at the point where it's something I'd consider scary sharp. I can cut paper fine, but can't shave. I thought about getting a few more water stones, but a nice 'entry level set' will run me about $150 and I am considering getting a paperwheel set up instead.

I was wondering if anyone has used paper wheels for nicer kitchen knives (aogami super, AEB-l, ginsan steels, konosuke / masakage brand). Some of these are lasers and I'm just not sure if it'll damage the edge or be able to put a razor edge on the knives. Harbor freight has a belt grinder for $40 and I can get the paper wheels for $40 so for half price of the stones (and almost no maintenance) I'm really considering doing it. Also, on a side note, would it be recommended to get the harbor freight one or spend a bit more and get a variable speed from lowes (http://www.lowes.com/pd_78808-46069...pl=1&currentURL=?Ntt=bench+grinder&facetInfo=)

My main concerns is most people with nice kitchen knives say waterstones are the best way to sharpen; they produce the best results. I'm not sure if this is because they haven't tried paper wheels, hence the thread.

Let me know and thanks in advance!
 
Last edited:
Please allow me to say, DONT DO IT. Can the paper wheels make Super Blue like a razor. YEP. Can they ruin a temper in a hurry? YEP. Can it be done? Of course, and is executed without any issues to the tempering, with experienced hands. It is extremely easy to reach temper busting temperatures with powered (and even non powered) sharpening.

This is an opinion for sure, but there is no way on this planet, above in Heaven, or below in Hell, that I would use paper wheels on fine kitchen cutlery.

I used a paper wheel set up at a place I worked where we offered knife sharpening. Used this set up for years. Easily produces razor edges on just about anything! And can over heat an edge if you aren't paying attention or know what you are doing. If you are experienced with using paper wheels, and understand the issue of heat and how it comes QUICKLY at the micron edge, go for it.

Now with that said, I'll shut up and let the crowd chime in and say "There is no problem at all. There is no possibility of overheating the edge, etc etc"

A King 1000 grit stone is a great stone for maintaining edges, but to get "razor" sharp, you may need something along the lines of 4000 grit. Just personal preference and ability, for sure. Many pro chef's like the "toothy" edge a 1000 stone can give you.
 
I have a hard time with the thought of using power sharpening tools on fine Japanese Kitchen Cutlery, I typically avoid it unless absolutely necessary.

The King 1k is a fine stone but it's not going to produce a world class edge by itself, and IMO keeping with King or other lower class waterstones will always keep you fighting for a high quality edge. These stones take more skill to use with a larger learning curve. I like the 1k King stone but beyond that I think there are much better options for finishing stones.

I would recommend you add one stone, The Shapton Glass 2k. It will refine and easily yield a shaving sharp edge while keeping well within a friendly budget. It will produce a better edge than any powered method ever will and do it safely without the possibility to damage the steel.

Power grinding and sharpening methods should be left to professionals, It will greatly reduce the life of the knife and in unskilled hands can quickly ruin a knife. I rarely recommend a knife to be machine sharpened.

If you would like to see the difference a waterstone edge can make on a fine Japanese blade just let me know, I have a stone for most any steel.
 
Simple answer.... YEP! Disclaimer: not without some practice on some less expensive knives to get acquainted with the technique involved in doing a good job without overheating the edges. It is not hard to learn if you are careful to pay attention to what is happening when the knives are on the gritted wheel, and then on the slotted wheel. You can overheat quickly on the slotted wheel when burnishing the thinned edge if too much pressure is applied. The secrete is to use light pressure and keep the blade moving at all times. Same way you would use a belt grinder.

I would spend the extra money for a variable speed buffer if you can. I have the Harbour Freight model you mentioned and have been using it for about 3 years with no adverse effects on any knife I have sharpened on it. I have a small sharpening service where I sharpen a lot of good quality kitchen knives, and have not damaged any yet.

I won't get into the fear mongering or the argument of the purest that only use "hand sharpening with Japanese water stones only or you will ruin your knives crowd. There are also others that will say that you can only get good results with a Wicked edge or an Edge Pro device. Truth is that there are lots of ways to sharpen your knives effectively and each one has its merits, and not to be overlooked, a learning curve to be proficient in their use. Pick one and learn it well and it will give you the results you desire no matter which one you use. Powered systems will not ruin your knives any more than a hand powered system will if used correctly. The manufactures use powered systems to sharpen the knives before they sell them all the time. So, it can be done when done correctly. Think about it!!

Omar
 
Let's just get one thing straight here about my attitude towards powered sharpening. Conversations online SUCK, because you have no idea the tone of the person or what is really trying to be said.

I am not part of the crowd that believes fine cutlery should only meet waterstones, or any sort of "purist" idea of such. My point is this.....YOU CAN REALLY BUGGER UP A HEAT TREAT WITH POWERED SHARPENING IN HURRY....if you aren't careful and understand exactly how quickly heat is conducted into something that is micron or sub micron in size.

If you understand this caveat of powered sharpening.....go for it. You can get seriously sharp edges with paper wheels.

And I REALLY REALLY hate the comment "Manufacturers use powered sharpening all the time". While the statement is true......THINK ABOUT IT. They have to sharpen hundreds of knives a day. They are RARELY tempered to above 60 or 61 degrees. They don't care if 1 point or even 2 points on the Rockwell C scale are lost when powered sharpening. In the end, the customer probably will not notice it, but the edge is a razor blade....that they DO notice. And the manufacturer was able to get those 100s of daily knives done with satisfaction.

What they WILL notice, is when they go to hand sharpen the knife. It will get harder and harder, because they are removing the over tempered steel....caused by careless powered sharpening. Happens ALL the time with factory knives....and we know why.

Let me ask you a question. If you had an Aogomi Super Blue kitchen knife that had a 20 degree inclusive 0.003" edge at 65HRC.....would YOU want someone using powered sharpening on it? Not this "white boy".

On a Buck 110.....go for it.
 
I've used paper wheels in a sharpening business for over thirty years. I've sharpened cutlery from all over the world.All it takes is some practice.Get some cheap knives from a second hand store and practice.You only use enough pressure to allow the wheel to cut at a slow rate. Raise a burr and polish it on the slotted wheel.If you aren't ready to take the time to use any sharpening system of any kind and learn how it works don't do it.If you look at some of the best custom knives made alot of them are sharpened by power sharpening.Slow down and learn what you need to learn.If you think some one with a set of stones can't screw up a good knife look around on this forum.The question is how good are they at what they do
 
That is exactly right. All it takes is practice. You CAN sharpen a nice, thin, hard edge on paper wheels without screwing it up. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot. I caution against it, and would not use it on my super hard fine edged kitchen cutlery.

Screwing up a knife with a set of stones would be a cosmetic screw up. You could certainly do the same thing with a paper wheel....to a greater degree even. I would dare say that you will not screw up a temper using sharpening stones. Now with THAT said.....there is one particular knife maker/ metallurgist in Germany who would tell me, "You most certainly CAN screw up a temper on a knife using stones". If my memory serves me right, he did a study where he imbedded many microscopic thermocouples into a steel block, close to the edge of the block. He then tried to "sharpen" the edge of this block (and IIRC, we aren't talking about a knife sized edge, but a 90 degree corner of a brick basically) on dry stones, and instantly measured temperatures exceeding 2,000F. That's TWO THOUSAND F. Not a typo. Again, this was dry, not lubed.

Interesting for sure.
 
I've sharpened knives with stones for 47 years. The reason I went to power sharpening is time.If a local hog farmer wants to butcher 100 hogs and needs 40 or 50 knives sharpened you can't take a long time to get them back to him.This guy wants a course edge.Because a polished edge won't cut the hogs course hair well. It rolls under a polished edge.When the edge starts to fail he uses a steel to bring the edge back up to a working edge.Most of the chefs I know use a steel to touch up an edge.One boss at a meat packing plant told me some of his guys good with a steel can keep a blade going for 3 to 4 months.With out resharpening to a thin edge.As far as loosing your temper goes most steel won't begin to lose anything until you hit over 450 degrees.Tool steel is much higher yet.On the forum I see alot of great ideas on sharpening.People who use their knives for a living don't have time to mess around.Time is money.Most meat packing plants today are using a medium and course diamond steel to keep their knives going with a minimum of time involved.It works fast and doesn't remove much steel.Do any of you guys steel a knife for maintain working edge?
 
2beagles121 said:
Do any of you guys steel a knife for maintain working edge?
Click to expand...

First, I appreciate you posting your experiences with blades used by people who make a living with them. I find it fascinating.

To your question about steeling: I maintain my kitchen knives using a large ceramic stick (about an inch in diameter) which is around 600-ish grit. Maybe lower or higher? I think it makes a pretty big difference in edge longevity. But I don't do that "banging away at the steel" thing that you see chefs doing all the time. I use it just like a stone, doing slow-ish edge leading strokes, checking the blade before and after.

Want to see some guys that SERIOUSLY use their blades? Check out this article about celery harvesting in California and how they maintain their blades. Very interesting. :)

Brian.
 
If it is simple carbon steel anywhere from 1050 all the way to 52100 or Blue steel or the like, and you want it at, say 64HRC, then the temper is not above 350F. VERY EASY to reach and blow a 64HRC temper with powered sharpening if you don't know what you are doing.

Some of the higher alloy tool steels, such as M4, for example, MAY or MAY NOT be tempered in the high temper ranges. And as such, if tempered in the lower ranges (which I understand gives better performance), then even a CPM M4 blade at 64HRC can have it's temper blown if it reaches above 350F.

Powered sharpening is good on saving time for sure.
 
2beagles121 said:
...Do any of you guys steel a knife for maintain working edge?
Click to expand...

I have and do, but only on relatively low RC steels. When I used to live on an overgrown lot, I'd walk it with a corn knife and a medium steel, touching it up as I went if needed.

Once it gets into the upper 50's I find the steel is much more likely to raise a burr that it cannot remove - though this will still cut well enough for tough jobs where you are in constant use and constantly touching it up anyway.

I did do some tinkering with steeling higher carbide steels at RC in the upper 50s/low 60s. As long as you match the original angle closely it does a good job without blowing any carbides out, but is not easy to manage in terms of margin of error and pressure variation.

It would be interesting to have someone with an EdgePro or WE do some experiments with precision laid in steeling passes on a smooth steel or borosilicate rod.
 
The difference that most don't understand is that we are talkng about Japanese cutlery. A Konosuke is not a cheap knife that you steel or take to a grinder. If you use a steel honing rod on most Japanese you will severely damage the edge because the knife is harder than the steel rod. Belt grinders and grinding wheels are unnecessary because the blades are so thin, these are not $8 meat packer knives they are premium cutting tools that require special care to keep performing as they should. Normal sharpening logic does not apply to Japanese Knives.

For a home cook that sharpens every 6 months and is not proficient in sharpening to begin with this is a sure way to end up with damaged knives. Good luck.
 
For myself, much of this is a side discussion, and if not clear, is not at all to be taken as a possible avenue for the OP. Waterstones used at manual speeds are the way to go.

As mentioned, some extremely carefully applied powered means might yield good results, but likely will be a shorter learning curve to use proper stones by hand, and produce better results to boot.
 
When I bought knives from japanese distribution companies (lots in Los angeles), the knives are usually not sharpened new (as most japanese professional knives come dull for chef to make his own bevels), after I picked our mt knife, he would offer a quick sharpen.
He take it to this giant wheel of stone, rub the edges on it and it was very very sharp. This guy was at least 70, so I'm sure he's been doing it for a while.
It wasn't paper, but stone, but my guess is it can still generate heat, but he touched the stone not even a quarter of a second at a time.
 
Yeah, I can't really fathom the idea of sharpening a Konosuke on a powered system. The bevels and geometry are so thin and amazingly precise that a millisecond too long and you will end up with a wavy edge.

On a Sebenza? Sure. It will probably save you some time. Still, with my Chosera 400 and Shapton Pro 1000, I can get an amazing edge in about 10 minutes.
 
Most Chefs in my area use German knives like Wüsthof and Zwilling J.A.Henckels, as well as various other brands with blades from (laminated) VG10 steel.
I sharpen these on the Tormek with the SB-250 Black Silicon stone graded to about 1000 grit, then deburr on the leather wheel with Tormek paste.
The German knives mostly get a 30 degrees inclusive edge angle, and the VG10 blades get a 25 to 30 degrees inclusive edge angle (depending on feedback)

Some Chefs however use Japanese knives from ZDP-189, Blue #2, or Super Blue, all with standard 50/50 edges.
Those i also sharpen on the Tormek first, but then refine the edges on a Paper Wheel with 15 micron diamond compound, then deburr on another Paper Wheel with 1 micron diamond.
Again based on feedback the ZDP-189 knives mostly get a 25 degrees inclusive edge angle, while the Blue #2 and the Super Blue get a 20 degrees inclusive edge angle.
The knives are used on professional plastic cutting boards (which tend to wear an edge quite fast on it's own), and after the edges loose their original sharpness the Chefs use ceramic rods on them to extend the time they can work with the knives (even though they do notice the increased cutting resistance from the microbevel)
I get to resharpen the knives again after +/- 3 months.
 
Last edited:
I use my paper wheels on my stainless kitchen knives but they're Cuisinart cheapies... ;):D:foot::rolleyes:
 
Alot of real interesting ideas.I've sharpened most of these knives for several years when I did my business.A german chef I knew was a guy who locked up his knives a night in the safe.Several Asian eateries had me come back for several years to sharpen for them with paper wheels.They had no complaints about temper loss.The finest diamond compound I use was an 8000 grit on a paper wheel with no slots.It worked well on forged blades that had been edge packed. I like A diamond steel for a quick touch up on tool steel.I made a d2 blade for our nephew before his deployment to Iraq and Afganistan.Taught him how to use a eze lap diamond rod.Still sharp after 2 tours.The blade rc at 62 so it worked out well in the field .Some people don't like a steel.But they will be around for a long time to come
 
Paper wheels can work, coffee cup rims can work. I would never use a wheel with a 4 inch radius on a "flat" edge especially on well executed kitchen knives. I know it can be done but there are so many better ways to do it. The kitchen knives I build are .098 to .103 at the spine, where they intersect the handle, they are taken to zero at the edge and most of them carry a 22 to 24 degree edge, with W2 they are at 61HRC. The thought of putting them against a moving wheel or any powered device makes me cringe. At that thinness the change happens quickly even on stones or diamond plates.

Edge packing is a myth.

Fred
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top