Does brass bond with steel

[DaNoog!]

So say I have a sword that has deep engraving.

Can I pour molten brass on the engraving to fill it such that when it cools it will stay in and not fall out?

My gut says yes. I could be wrong. So I thought I'd ask

 

[WValtakis]

No, inlays require an undercut to hold them in the base metal.

 

[Horsewright]

Mt 50th Bday present from the wife:

The silver is inlaid into a channel that is under cut as mentioned above. The silver domes are riveted through with a small stud of silver that comes out the on the inside and riveted flat. Stuff has stayed put through 13 years of hard use:

To further confound things there is a technique where a few bitmakers have developed the ability to flow silver into a channel and get it to bond to the steel. Most cannot.I know that temps have to be super exact otherwise it won't work. On the inside of this bridle bit there is 50 that has been flowed into the cheekpiece, celebrating my birthday. He got it right cause its still there. Just don't have a pic of it. However, back in May, my wife turned 50. So I had my friend that made me this bit, make one for her too:

On the inside of the cheekpiece just like on my bit he flowed the molten silver into the channel and it stayed put binding to the steel:

So it is doable but extremely difficult and only a few have mastered the ability. But then this is silver and steel. Not brass and steel. Also surprised her with a private concert in the backyard by her favorite singer. Pretty good Bday!

 

[DaNoog!]

how does one "undercut"

 

[A.McPherson]

Think about a dovetail joint.

You cut a square channel, then use a wedge shaped chisel to cut into the "walls" of the channel pushing the top edge upwards.

That kinda makes a dovetail shape. Then you smash the inlay metal down into the channel.

Simplified, for the sake of discussion. If you want examples, just jump on YouTube and look up "master engraver tv". He's a really good engraver and takes time to explain what he's doing sometimes.

 

[Horsewright]

They use chisels.

 

[Richard338]

I was stupid enough to try some of what you're thinking about. I bought engraving chisels from Rio Grande and carved letters into a sword. Melting bronze into the channels didn't work so I applied gold leaf. I also made a series of grooves with undercut and hammered silver and gold wire into them making a herringbone pattern. You need a special planishing hammer.
Take home for me was leave the engraving to the pros. It's very tedious and easy to slip and make it look like crap.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Horsewright- I believe your silver is inlaid, rather than melted in place.

I have played with doing silver inlay with dental amalgam-the stuff old silver fillings were made from. It works, but offers no real advantage over inlaying.

 

[fitzo]

After the edges are undercut, little "teeth" are usually raised in the flats to grab the inlay metal if it's anything more than a single wire.

You'd likely need carbide gravers to cut a hardened sword.

 

[Horsewright]

Horsewright- I believe your silver is inlaid, rather than melted in place.

I have played with doing silver inlay with dental amalgam-the stuff old silver fillings were made from. It works, but offers no real advantage over inlaying.

All exterior silver is inlaid only the 50 on both bits are flowed. He did it cause he could and wanted to see if he could. Only one bit and spur maker that I know of does the flowed silver all the time, Mark Dahl. He guarantees that you will never lose silver from one of his bits or spurs. While rare I have lost inlaid silver from a spur before and an overlay too. Fact I won’t buy an overlaid spur or bit. Suckers gonna come off in real life use. Maybe ok for the show ring but not so much cowboying.

Google, Abbie Hunt bitmaker. He was a local (Kern County Ca), bitmaker (1876-1967), that developed the technique to flow the silver. The reference book that I have (Bits and Spurs In The Vaquero Tradition) says that he developed the technical skill to flow the silver by heating the iron to 1450 degrees and melting the silver at the same temp so that they fused together. He taught a few others but it is not a common technique. Often and this was common in the old days he would use Mexican pesos as his silver source. Kinda cool in and of itself.

 

[A.McPherson]

There's also brazing, which involves melting a brass alloy onto the steel surface.

 

[FredyCro]

There's also brazing, which involves melting a brass alloy onto the steel surface.

I think that's what Horsewright is referring to. Silver will flow better and stick to steel at about 500°C, brass need temperature of about 800°C. Both are used for brazing lug style steel bike frames. Brass is used for filet brazing. The trick is not to melt the filler to cold steel, but to have the still at the working temp. So I guess you could fill the engravings with brass on simple carbon steels and then heat treat after. Much like go mai with brass.

 

[DaNoog!]

There's also brazing, which involves melting a brass alloy onto the steel surface.

i think that was what i was attempting to describe in my OP. does the steel have to be heated as well or can it be at room temperature? this is already rapidly above my paygrade but cool to think about

 

[FredyCro]

i think that was what i was attempting to describe in my OP. does the steel have to be heated as well or can it be at room temperature? this is already rapidly above my paygrade but cool to think about

It has to be heated or it won't stick. Google brass brazing. You need a good torch and a small brazing tip. A simple practice is to try lay beads of brass on a piece of steel and than try to hammer and/or chisel them away.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I have brazed silver, brass, and bonze onto/into steel.
Simplest way is to make a deep engraving cut and then flow the metal in using the appropriate flux coated brazing rods. The temps are around 1200-1400°F. Once cooled, you file/grind away the excess and then sand and polish. The result looks like what Horsewright showed.

Fun story:
I have a partly finished double barrel Baretta over under 12 gauge muzzle loader from 1969. I have worked on it on and off for 50+ years. Maybe I'll finish it next year.
This is something that doesn't exist since the tri-centennial M1000 black powder guns (only 300 made) were not released until 1980. It is a long story about how 50 of these barrels happened to leave the factory ten years earlier. The end of the story was that they ran a brass brazing rod down the rib to cover the words "Pietro Barretta, Milan Italy" and sold the barrels as scrap. Those of us who were lucky enough to get one through a Missouri gun dealer who bought them from the Italian scrap dealer could carefully file/sand away the brazing and expose the writing in brass letters.
Crazy as it sounds, the barrel, breech block, locks and triggers, fittings and hardware, and a roughed out walnut stock cost me $49.00 back then.

 

[A.McPherson]

Sounds like a fun project Stacy! Gonna have to show us some pics of that!