Does carbon steel ever stop making food taste weird?

[abbydaddy]

Okay, so full disclosure, I've never carried a carbon steel pocket knife before. Since I have always lived in damp and/or coastal areas in my life it never seemed to make sense to me to go for anything other than stainless steel (I also sweat pretty profusely, and I try to stay active). I have had carbon steel fixed blades for utility and woodworking, but never a pocket knife.

I have mostly started carrying traditional knives because I enjoy the porch, and I have enjoyed participating in the annual knives these past two years. I got to a point where I really had all the modern folders I wanted, but I like knives and traditionals are a fun way to feed the addiction. That said, I pretty much limit myself to scout knives that I give away and to the forum knife. This year's forum knife was my first carbon steel pocket knife.

I carry last year's knife pretty much every day during the regular week. It is university friendly and great for slicing apples for my daughter. She is two and a half and really likes me cutting her apples for her.

I thought last year's knife was pretty much perfect for me so I really didn't mind that this year's knife was not going to be as handy for me. I was going to buy it to participate, not so much for a user. I was very excited when there was a chance that it would be a scout knife. I hadn't had the disposable income to justify buying the camp knife that Charlie had last year, and scout knives are more near and dear to my heart in any case. But once the discussion moved away from being a scout knife to being the half-scout with the main and a punch I figured "meh, at least other people can get what they want this year since I got everything I wanted last year." Even though I had carried scout knives as a kid, I had never found much use for the punch. I always thought of it as an ironically pointless pointy thing on an otherwise useful pattern.

But even though I am mostly a graduate student/instructor, I also clear brush as a part time gig. I have found that carrying a good size fixed blade is VERY handy for that work, so since I had an extra scout knife knocking around this year, and my wife appropriated my sodbuster, I decided to try carrying a scout knife again this summer. I discovered, much to my shock, that I REALLY like the punch. The punch gets more use than anything else on my scout. The fixed blade handles most of the cutting I end up needing to do, but the punch is very handy for things I wouldn't want to ding up an edge on the main blade for. So after realizing that I actually like the punch, I started getting excited for the forum knife again.

When I finally got my forum knife I was unfortunately one of the 5% who had serious problems with the punch. After much obsessive futzing, flushing, working, and a little brass off of the liner, and more oil, and wearing down the spots where the blades rubbed, I got my forum knife working. I was grumpy about it, but I had never planned on carrying the knife anyway, so I told myself it wasn't a big deal. But once I actually got the knife working... well, I wanted to carry it. It is pretty, that spear blade is gorgeous, and I love Indian-Trail/Worm-Groove. When I was a boy I had a jigged bone knife with worm grooves that I loved (until I lost) and the forum knife reminded me of it. So I decided that I was going to try carrying this years knife after all.

The first thing I ended up using the knife for was to peel and slice a pear for my daughter. That was when I discovered that apparently I REALLY don't like the flavor of carbon steel. I was also a little sad to realize that even that bit of use was enough to impart pretty significant patina, even though I immediately washed and oiled the knife. I guess I am just not cut out for this carbon steel stuff, or maybe I have to try it for a while to understand why people like it.

So I guess my real question is: Why do you like carbon steel? Does it ever stop making fruit taste gross? Why is patina considered a good thing? To my eye it just makes my pretty new knife look dull and dirty. I know that lots of people on the porch LOVE patina. Does a good patina make the knife stop making food taste bad?

I feel like I am pretty knowledgeable about modern folders and stainless and near stainless particle steels, but old fashioned carbon steels on traditional patterns is really not something I know a lot about. Despite my initial grumping about my forum knife this year, I do like the way it looks, and I want to see if I can learn to appreciate it for what it is. Here is a picture of my pair of forum knives. As a relative newbie to the porch, I've been buying them as long as I have been here.

 

[Hickory n steel]

I love carbon stee because lStainless Steel just gets all scratched up and ugly looking, while patina covers that up and it looks great. I don't cut fruit with my knives and haven't noticed any sort of taste with my carbon steel blades ( I've currently only got 3 I carry ) so I don't really know.
I'd imagine that if you keep cutting fruit the taste won't go away.

 

[bt93]

One reason I prefer stainless. I know carbon steel is the old school, but there's a reason so many states have laws against restaurants using carbon steel cutlery. Pick yourself up a good stainless steel blade. Case is reliable, Trestle Pines and Northwoods are using CPM 154. Of course Victorinox is reliable. I know that 1095 is supposed to be legendary for getting so sharp and ease of sharpening, but I know my Vic can get wicked sharp and is also easy to sharpen. Years ago I was staunchly in the carbon steel corner, but got tired of polishing off rust. Too me a patina is a cop out, steel is supposed to shine.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

It tastes the worst when the patina starts. Once a patina is established it'll be ~80 percent less but still there.
The first cut on any fruit will always be the worst and then the following cuts will not taste at all.
I'm not worried too much but wondering what kind of compounds get created when all the alloy components and acids and enzymes mix. Surely not all of them super healthy...

 

[WilliamCody]

OP, in my experience it never will. Patina won't stop the oxidation and taste on foods (specifically acidic fruits or green vegetables).

I do own an old clever in 1095, patina'ed all to hell that I have had for about a decade. Sure I have butchered thousands of chickens with it, but I always clean/oil after use. Patina is not something I think you can reasonably manage if you use a carbon blade for foods.

That said, it's the only carbon knife I would touch food with, and even then only raw meats that will immediately be cooked or marinated. Stainless is king with foodservice and some places even use ceramic or plastic "blades" for fruits and green vegetables.

 

[screened porch]

One reason I prefer stainless. I know carbon steel is the old school, but there's a reason so many states have laws against restaurants using carbon steel cutlery. Pick yourself up a good stainless steel blade. Case is reliable, Trestle Pines and Northwoods are using CPM 154. Of course Victorinox is reliable. I know that 1095 is supposed to be legendary for getting so sharp and ease of sharpening, but I know my Vic can get wicked sharp and is also easy to sharpen. Years ago I was staunchly in the carbon steel corner, but got tired of polishing off rust. Too me a patina is a cop out, steel is supposed to shine.

I didn't know this.
Non-stainless can't be very deadly, since it was all we had until around 100 years ago, and wasn't fit to use until around 50 years ago (very roughly speaking).

I notice the smell, rather than the taste, of carbon on acid.

 

[ISKRA]

It's the worst when it's new. I can really notice the taste and metalic smell of a new carbon knife. It goes away to a large degree after good use, when the patina is fully formed over the whole blade. I'm a student in university and in Slovenia we get food subventions from the state. That's great if you don't cook, like me, as it makes eating out more afordable. Anyway, they often give us fruit in restaurants and 90 % of the time its apples. I'm already sick of them. I don't always eat them and noone else wants them. So I cut them to really thin slices with the knife I'm carrying (always a carbon blade since july). It makes a nice even patina and after three or four apples much of the taste and smell goes away. Never had trouble with my peanut and I cut everything with it - apples, clementines, pickles, cheese, pizza. Still, you should only cut food with it, wipe the blade from time to time. Don't let it stick in the food or so.

Why I like carbon? I didn't have any untill this summer. Aside from Opinel it's very hard to come across carbon steel here, traditional knives have no market here, except for SAKs and a lill bit of Opinel. I'm sick and tired of stainless, I find it boring. I've done some experiments with mustard and it stains as well, but leaves ugly stains like oil on water or so. I love the caracter the patina adds to the knife, it makes it more personal to me and guys say it holds an edge better and is easier to sharpen (haven't tried it out yet, have to learn how to sharpen).

 

[r8shell]

One reason I prefer stainless. I know carbon steel is the old school, but there's a reason so many states have laws against restaurants using carbon steel cutlery. Pick yourself up a good stainless steel blade. Case is reliable, Trestle Pines and Northwoods are using CPM 154. Of course Victorinox is reliable. I know that 1095 is supposed to be legendary for getting so sharp and ease of sharpening, but I know my Vic can get wicked sharp and is also easy to sharpen. Years ago I was staunchly in the carbon steel corner, but got tired of polishing off rust. Too me a patina is a cop out, steel is supposed to shine.

I didn't know this.
Non-stainless can't be very deadly, since it was all we had until around 100 years ago, and wasn't fit to use until around 50 years ago (very roughly speaking).

I notice the smell, rather than the taste, of carbon on acid.

I still don't know this. I've never heard of such a law, and can't seem to find it cited on the Google.

I don't notice my old patinaed kitchen knife imparting a taste to food, but I agree that fruit cut with a new carbon steel knife will be pretty bad. It seems to get better as the surface patina keeps it from reacting with the acids in the fruit, but if you think about it, the steel at the edge bevel will always be fresh steel, and react. Hmmm... Maybe I just get used to the taste, and anyway a little iron is good for you.

 

[bt93]

I didn't know this.
Non-stainless can't be very deadly, since it was all we had until around 100 years ago, and wasn't fit to use until around 50 years ago (very roughly speaking).

I notice the smell, rather than the taste, of carbon on acid.

My bust, however apparently it can be the discretion of a health inspector. A restaurant can get dinged if there is any patina on a knife as the patina can fall off into food. So if you keep your carbon steel butchers knife immaculately spotless, you'll be alright. If there is any bit of patina, depending on the inspector, you could get dinged. If it's covered in patina, some inspectors might let it slide, some will ding you.
Having once been an advocate of 1095 and knowing the effort to keep it shiny, I'm more comfortable if a chef is using stainless steel.

 

[Rich S]

I've used carbon steel for my kitchen knives basically forever (60+ years). Old Hickory, Sabatier, etc. and have never had any problems with strange tastes, smell or anything. Just keep them clean (no dishwashers), oil after use (food grade oil) for kitchen knives. Also have several carbon folders and likewise, no problems. They get wiped off and oiled (3 in1 ) after use. I also have several modern stainless folders that I like. While they require less "care", I don't see any significant difference in performance. All my outdoors knives are carbon (scandi types) and again just wipe them down and oil them well when I got home.

Rich

 

[supratentorial]

Fruit knives were plated or made of silver or ivory or some other material that resists rust. They go back to at least the 1600s.

Carbon steel will still react with acids in food after a patina forms. It may slow down some. Using modern pocket knives with carbon blades to cut food is rarely a matter of necessity and it's rarely the best tool for the job. Knife enthusiasts don't necessarily do things out of necessity though.

I do prefer to use kitchen knives for food. One reason is that a kitchen knife is easier to keep clean and more sanitary. There are custom and production kitchen knives that should interest a knife enthusiast. Although not the most interesting example, the company that made the forum knife also makes kitchen knives with 420HC stainless steel... but there are definitely more fancy kitchen knives.

 

[matt009au]

We have 3 carbon steel kitchen knives we use most days ( two Japanese ones and a Norwegian blade). Once they picked up a good patina no more funny taste. I boiled the last one in vinegar to accelerate the process.

Re why I like them, they take and hold a good edge and are cheaper than getting comparative performance from a stainless.

Matt

 

[supratentorial]

We have 3 carbon steel kitchen knives we use most days ( two Japanese ones and a Norwegian blade). Once they picked up a good patina no more funny taste. I boiled the last one in vinegar to accelerate the process.

Re why I like them, they take and hold a good edge and are cheaper than getting comparative performance from a stainless.

Matt

You've slowed it down. Quite a bit with vinegar. But the "patina" is still constantly changing... Wear exposes a fresh surface.... some products are dissolved... etc.

There are some very nice carbon steel kitchen knives. They don't fold and are easier to keep sanitary than pocket knives.

 

[deltaboy]

I never noticed any issue with mine.

 

[kamagong]

Some people are much more sensitive than others to the taste carbon steel imparts on food.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

I still don't know this. I've never heard of such a law, and can't seem to find it cited on the Google.

I don't notice my old patinaed kitchen knife imparting a taste to food, but I agree that fruit cut with a new carbon steel knife will be pretty bad. It seems to get better as the surface patina keeps it from reacting with the acids in the fruit, but if you think about it, the steel at the edge bevel will always be fresh steel, and react. Hmmm... Maybe I just get used to the taste, and anyway a little iron is good for you.

This^^^^^^^^^^^^:thumbup:

Personally I never taste it, I can smell it on a new blade as the patina begins to form but unless I scrub the blade the smell goes away

My bust, however apparently it can be the discretion of a health inspector. A restaurant can get dinged if there is any patina on a knife as the patina can fall off into food. So if you keep your carbon steel butchers knife immaculately spotless, you'll be alright. If there is any bit of patina, depending on the inspector, you could get dinged. If it's covered in patina, some inspectors might let it slide, some will ding you.
Having once been an advocate of 1095 and knowing the effort to keep it shiny, I'm more comfortable if a chef is using stainless steel.

How does patina fall off? if it falls off it's rust. I worked in the food industry for a little over 3 years, I had to deal with the USDA inspectors every day, they had an office behind my maintenance shop. They never said anything about any knife unless it has a place for bacteria to hide. As long as the blades were clean and oiled at the end of the day and stored in airtight containers we were fine.

Granted over 80% of the blades were stainless except the ones the rabbi used, Rabbi Fuchs was old school Orthodox Kosher, the O with the u inside kinda kosher so his knives were all carbon steel. The reason stainless is used is because it's generally low maintenance. The women that worked the tables all had sets of SS butcher knives at each station but each one carried their own HCS blade in these plastic holders they clipped to the splash guards on the tables for the fine work. Everyone there could and did sharpen their own carbon steel blade but all the SS came back to the maintenance shop for me to sharpen on the belt grinder.

The only other thing I know that'll reduce the taste is a food grade polish on a highly buffed blade but most commercial kitchens and food factories use their knives pretty much non stop until the blade begins to fail. I used to sharpen all blades they gave me then buffed the blades. I'll have to see if I can find the stuff I used to use.

 

[jc57]

...So I guess my real question is:
Why do you like carbon steel?
Does it ever stop making fruit taste gross?
Why is patina considered a good thing? To my eye it just makes my pretty new knife look dull and dirty. I know that lots of people on the porch LOVE patina.
Does a good patina make the knife stop making food taste bad?
...

Answering your specific questions:
Why do you like carbon steel?
- I don't in particular. It's just that some knives that I like happen to come in only that type of steel so I have no choice. Most of my pocket knife usage does not cause rust or patina so it's not a big deal, plus I don't mind occasional maintenance and oiling.

Does it ever stop making fruit taste gross?
- "Gross" is a matter of individual perspective. It does continue to impart a slight metallic tang, which you may or may not consider unpleasant to varying degrees. I have used carbon steel knives to slice apples and I eat the apples. But in general I prefer to use stainless steels for any food prep uses. But that's more for ease of cleanup by washing. When I regularly took apples to work with me, I would carry a stainless steel knife specifically for apple cutting (usually a kitchen paring knife with a plastic sheath) and not use a carbon steel pocket knife.

Why is patina considered a good thing? To my eye it just makes my pretty new knife look dull and dirty. I know that lots of people on the porch LOVE patina.
Some people like the looks of it. I generally use a metal polish and remove it when it forms. That is one reason why I prefer the highly polished blades of GEC's Northfield line over the satin finished Tidioute. My frequently carried GECs have blades that are just about as shiny as they were when they were new.

Does a good patina make the knife stop making food taste bad?
Not completely.

Note that many high-end kitchen knives used by professional chefs use reactive steels, so it's not necessarily a bad thing to use a carbon steel knife on food. It may only be foods that are acidic and sweet (like fruits) that have a taste imparted that you don't like.

 

[traumkommode]

Fruit knives were plated or made of silver or ivory or some other material that resists rust. They go back to at least the 1600s.

Carbon steel will still react with acids in food after a patina forms. It may slow down some. Using modern pocket knives with carbon blades to cut food is rarely a matter of necessity and it's rarely the best tool for the job. Knife enthusiasts don't necessarily do things out of necessity though.

I do prefer to use kitchen knives for food. One reason is that a kitchen knife is easier to keep clean and more sanitary. There are custom and production kitchen knives that should interest a knife enthusiast. Although not the most interesting example, the company that made the forum knife also makes kitchen knives with 420HC stainless steel... but there are definitely more fancy kitchen knives.

If I'm really honest with myself, much of my pocket knife enthusiasm exists to have something hobby-ish and material to be enthusiastic about. When it comes to carbon steel, at first I didn't like it and was worried about rust and all of that. But then it grew on me. I love patina now. I think it looks cool. I like how it changes. And I purposely cut things like apples just to get the patina, as to which Jake alluded. I even enjoy the smell/taste, because to me, it makes the knife feel like something that has life/evolution. I also get cravings for red meat, in part because of the iron in the blood, and I know this is a different flavor of iron, but it still registers in the olfactory instruments.

Not everyone likes it, though, and that's why we have stainless steels. There are lots of traditional knives in stainless setups, though they're fewer with the GEC brand. But that CSC serpentine might be the way to go for you to cut up your fruits - 440C is about as stainless as it gets, at least in the traditional world, and those '15s are fun knives.

I don't have much experience with O1, so I can't speak to the smell/flavor there. But Queen makes blades in D2, which ain't really stainless, but is close, and probably won't give you the smell/taste experience that bothers you.

 

[fishcakes]

Honestly, i dont notice a taste or smell from carbon steel at all, my girlfriend doesnt seen to either. I got back from a 2 month road trip a couple weeks ago, and i used a gec coyote for all our food prep during the trip.

 

[bt93]

This^^^^^^^^^^^^:thumbup:

Personally I never taste it, I can smell it on a new blade as the patina begins to form but unless I scrub the blade the smell goes away



How does patina fall off? if it falls off it's rust. I worked in the food industry for a little over 3 years, I had to deal with the USDA inspectors every day, they had an office behind my maintenance shop. They never said anything about any knife unless it has a place for bacteria to hide. As long as the blades were clean and oiled at the end of the day and stored in airtight containers we were fine.

Granted over 80% of the blades were stainless except the ones the rabbi used, Rabbi Fuchs was old school Orthodox Kosher, the O with the u inside kinda kosher so his knives were all carbon steel. The reason stainless is used is because it's generally low maintenance. The women that worked the tables all had sets of SS butcher knives at each station but each one carried their own HCS blade in these plastic holders they clipped to the splash guards on the tables for the fine work. Everyone there could and did sharpen their own carbon steel blade but all the SS came back to the maintenance shop for me to sharpen on the belt grinder.

The only other thing I know that'll reduce the taste is a food grade polish on a highly buffed blade but most commercial kitchens and food factories use their knives pretty much non stop until the blade begins to fail. I used to sharpen all blades they gave me then buffed the blades. I'll have to see if I can find the stuff I used to use.

I used to get shiny spots on my old Barlows from slicing rope and such. Maybe I should've said rub off instead of fall off, sorry if I mispoke. What you described about cleaning and oiling and put into air tight containers sounds good, but definitly something you have to do with carbon steel.
Didn't mean to insult, you like carbon steel, knock yourself out. I'll still consider it a hassle with pocket knives, and we'll continue on knowing we get to make that choice.