Double-edge grafting/clip blade size, would it fit on an 91mm? And other unusual blade shape information? (Swiss Army Knife)

[Hashishiin]

Hello, United Forums of Multiples Purpose, I offer you most humble salutations. So, I just purchased a Victorinox Ecoline Grafter in the spirit of trying to gather parts to have built my perfect... probably pair or trio, of SAKs, depending on what I/a custom maker is able to fit into what. What I am trying to figure out in this thread, specifically, is the size of the grafting clip-style blade from the Ecoline Grafter (as well as a couple of others, if you know), whether I can fit it on an 91mm SAK, and if not, what are my next best options?

The sheepsfoot blade on the Grafter is only 55mm cutting edge, and look, the grafting blade appears to be smaller, but it does have a large choil, but looking at the picture, it does appear to have a smaller cutting edge than that sheepsfoot, which is a good sign for me. Not knowing how long the tang is... could the grafting blade (and, for that matter, the sheepsfoot?) potentially be attached to an 91mm SAK? I also have an Alox Floral coming, which is 95mm, and that blade is a potential candidate for inclusion as well, if it will be easier to fit into an 91 than this sheepsfoot.


Thinking perhaps the tang-hole(?) could be moved up to make it fit, but also, think of the wood-saw on the Camper, how it is longer than the main blade. Maybe that little nub of steel on the scale that holds the "tip" of the saw, could be filed down on a Huntsman or Fieldmaster to support a knife of more length without dulling the tip? The reason I am so set on an 91mm is because of the special white scales I enjoy mainly coming in that size, but a larger Alox would not be totally out of the question for one of these "Wonder-SAKs", but I'd really like to see what I can get into an 81mm. I really want my special white scales.
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Here's some extra info about what I'm doing/why I'm asking.

I was thinking of making two special 91mms, one with the grafting blade/ a K390 Wharncliffe D-fly (interestingly enough, that will easier fit an 84mm) and one with a serrated Spyderco Cricket/sheepsfoot or Floral wharncliffe blade. Those are my absolute favorite small utility Spydercos, and it would be great to be able to just grab a SAK including one of each. I know for a fact the D-Fly blade can be put on an 91mm.

Other considerations - a serrated hawkbill such as on the Victorinox Baker's Knife if I find one, or a pruning blade, both of these already will fit on an 91mm. Also looking at a wharncliffe small blade for a 58mm, if I ever decide to make one of those my own. Almost bought a 12c27 Spyderco Bug for one, but then I realized, that is basically Inox.

I am still new-ish to the SAK game, figuring out which tools I prefer, but the 91mm is a versatile one, being my daily carry, and have recently fallen in love with 74mm for leisure/light carry (because carrying an 84 just makes me wonder why I don't just bring a 91, and the 58mm is great, just leaves me feeling under-tooled sometimes, 74mm Executive is perfect for light carry though). Have yet to experience many of the larger SAKs, but will be experiencing an Explorer soon. I just want to have funky SAKs made all my own in a different way than micarta or Ti scales.

Thanks for any info.

 

[kamakiri.knives]

The good news is that you should be able to get any of those to work in a 91mm frame.

My only ‘bad’ news is that my explanation is going to use the original number patterns for the blade types because that’s the way it is in my head now.
Sheepsfoot/Floral = 475
Budding profile = 474

The great news is that I can tell you the 475 fits in place of a post-2005 (2.0mm wide) 91mm main blade with ZERO modification or cutting of parts. Just drops in and works fine despite the pin size mismatch (3.5mm pins for 100mm and 2.5mm for 91mm). So a backside CS or Phillips is retained, but an extra small blade spacer is needed on the opposite end. A custom cut part could be used, but two OEM 1mm spacers work. A little not-so-secret of mine as I haven’t seen anyone else do it. I’ll put one together and post a pic for you later —tonight or tomorrow.

I haven’t put the 474 in anything else, but I have several that I use as they’re intended for budding softwood. I think it only needs a little cut/adjustment at the ricasso/kick at the finger grip to make it sit low enough so the tip of the blade doesn’t stick out. I don’t know for certain, but I suspect it should work otherwise exactly like the 475 regarding the pin diameter mismatch. They use the same springs in the 100mm frame, so I don’t see any more potential issues.

So now you know it can be done…and it sounds like a cool project!

 

[Hashishiin]

K kamakiri.knives Thank you for the very valuable information! I know nothing about the internals of SAKs, just started looking into it the other day, and have no setup to drill pins and the like, so these pieces of info will be fantastic to pass along to a modder if they are not aware of such. I am absolutely stoked to find that these blades will be able to fit with a little modification. I hope I can retain most of the choil on the budding knife.

I'm going to have to be patient and wait to find the right modder for the job or wait for SpikeDeisel's waitlist to clear up, but these will be awesome when completed!

 

[Guy McVer]

I know nothing about the internals of SAKs, just started looking into it the other day, and have no setup to drill pins and the like

The way I see it, having a drill press is a pretty major barrier to entry when it comes to SAK modding. I'd like to find some other way, because cleanly removing those pins while preserving the plate and bushings is one of the most crucial steps to modding a celidor SAK. Without a drill press, you're basically restricted to modding the backside tools on the 84 and 91mm models, since the back pivot doesn't have any bushings.

Fortunately the pins on the alox models can be removed by sanding or filing. If you're careful and use tape or stiff paper as a protective barrier, you can probably do it that way without damaging the scales.

 

[kamakiri.knives]

I had the parts loose and found them quickly enough to do this tonight:

Hope that helps! I honestly thought there wouldn’t ever be anyone to ask about this specific mod. I only figured this out when I was working on getting the hawksbill/476 (which doesn’t fit so easily because of the lower tip) into other frames. Checked other blade types for what would go in easily.

 

[kamakiri.knives]

K kamakiri.knives Thank you for the very valuable information! I know nothing about the internals of SAKs, just started looking into it the other day, and have no setup to drill pins and the like, so these pieces of info will be fantastic to pass along to a modder if they are not aware of such. I am absolutely stoked to find that these blades will be able to fit with a little modification. I hope I can retain most of the choil on the budding knife.

You’re welcome! Save copies of the pics — just in case. I don’t think much needs to come off from the kick on the budding blade maybe a few mm. Some probably could be taken from the spring, but that would be up to the builder.

 

[Hashishiin]

I had the parts loose and found them quickly enough to do this tonight:

Hope that helps! I honestly thought there wouldn’t ever be anyone to ask about this specific mod. I only figured this out when I was working on getting the hawksbill/476 (which doesn’t fit so easily because of the lower tip) into other frames. Checked other blade types for what would go in easily.

Thank you so much, really appreciate this! Absolutely awesome, and yes, while I will have the most unique SAK, it's unknown territory for most, so not a lot of info out there on these specific mods!

 

[Hashishiin]

The way I see it, having a drill press is a pretty major barrier to entry when it comes to SAK modding. I'd like to find some other way, because cleanly removing those pins while preserving the plate and bushings is one of the most crucial steps to modding a celidor SAK. Without a drill press, you're basically restricted to modding the backside tools on the 84 and 91mm models, since the back pivot doesn't have any bushings.

Fortunately the pins on the alox models can be removed by sanding or filing. If you're careful and use tape or stiff paper as a protective barrier, you can probably do it that way without damaging the scales.

Indeed, it'll be a while till I can do it myself. I am about to get my first Alox, the aforementioned Floral, but I need my white cellidor for these I'll see how I like it, though! It'll be a while till any knife gets taken apart as I need a maker.

By the way, just a random note because of your name - been watching a TON of MacGuyver lately, love it, perfect balance of good show and 80s cheese.

 

[Hashishiin]

Spikediesel These will be the ones I will ask for once your books open should ya choose to take it

 

[kamakiri.knives]

The way I see it, having a drill press is a pretty major barrier to entry when it comes to SAK modding. I'd like to find some other way, because cleanly removing those pins while preserving the plate and bushings is one of the most crucial steps to modding a celidor SAK. Without a drill press, you're basically restricted to modding the backside tools on the 84 and 91mm models, since the back pivot doesn't have any bushings.

While this might apply to some or most folks, I disagree about needing a drill press…because I don’t have one and I don’t use any sort of fixed equipment like a mill or other device that has precise control of a rotary tool. I have a cordless drill and a Dremel with the flex attachment. Sure, a press or mill would allow me to do a lot more work and somewhat more reliably, but unless I really need to crank out parts, I won’t need to add any such equipment…yet.

As for drilling out pins and saving the bushings, I do just fine with the hand drill. A well centered small dia. pilot hole made deep enough to prevent any walking with the larger bit.

This is an example where the bushing was removed without any damage. The marks on the top lip of the bushing are factory.

Fortunately the pins on the alox models can be removed by sanding or filing. If you're careful and use tape or stiff paper as a protective barrier, you can probably do it that way without damaging the scales.

It’s my opinion that this can’t really be done on alox rivets with sanding or filing. There’s enough rivet material that’s in the chamfered/countersunk portion that AFAIK, is not accessible by sandpaper or files. But I’d love to be wrong about that.

 

[kamakiri.knives]

I am about to get my first Alox, the aforementioned Floral

Do you have a pic of this knife? I think I missed that you said alox. I know of some of the old ones that were more like the baker’s knives, but not sure if this is what you mean. AFAIK, the usual reference for ’Floral knife’ are the 100mm 475/sheepsfoot which are normally nylon scaled with either alox or brass liners.

 

[Guy McVer]

I am about to get my first Alox, the aforementioned Floral

The floral knife is not an alox model. Alox refers to the scale material, which is aluminum. Alox is shorthand for 'aluminum oxide'. The floral knife has nylon scales, but as you noticed it does also have those lovely exposed rivets like the alox models do.

I disagree about needing a drill press…because I don’t have one and I don’t use any sort of fixed equipment like a mill or other device that has precise control of a rotary tool.

It’s my opinion that this can’t really be done on alox rivets with sanding or filing. There’s enough rivet material that’s in the chamfered/countersunk portion that AFAIK, is not accessible by sandpaper or files. But I’d love to be wrong about that.

For this type of problem I keep picturing a rough textured steeply pointed cone shape like what you would use with a dremel, except for use by hand. There has to be something like that. I can't imagine there is some stable way to wrap sandpaper around a pointed object steep enough to twist it like some kind of sanding awl without quickly ripping the paper.

I can't let go of the idea of being able to do this stuff without power tools. I suppose you could use an old style hand crank drill, but it would wobble all over the place.

 

[Hashishiin]

Do you have a pic of this knife? I think I missed that you said alox. I know of some of the old ones that were more like the baker’s knives, but not sure if this is what you mean. AFAIK, the usual reference for ’Floral knife’ are the 100mm 475/sheepsfoot which are normally nylon scaled with either alox or brass liners.

Yessir, and the forum was right, it is indeed colored nylon, along with the Day Packer, another one I am looking at for it's unique shape. I just got confused, colored = alox in my head sometimes. It's very similar to the blade on that Grafting model up in the first post, just ground on both sides as opposed to the chisel grind.

 

[kamakiri.knives]

Yessir, and the forum was right, it is indeed colored nylon, along with the Day Packer, another one I am looking at for it's unique shape. I just got confused, colored = alox in my head sometimes. It's very similar to the blade on that Grafting model up in the first post, just ground on both sides as opposed to the chisel grind.

All good just wanted to make sure there wasn’t something I was misunderstanding.

The floral knife is not an alox model. Alox refers to the scale material, which is aluminum. Alox is shorthand for 'aluminum oxide'. The floral knife has nylon scales, but as you noticed it does also have those lovely exposed rivets like the alox models do.



For this type of problem I keep picturing a rough textured steeply pointed cone shape like what you would use with a dremel, except for use by hand. There has to be something like that. I can't imagine there is some stable way to wrap sandpaper around a pointed object steep enough to twist it like some kind of sanding awl without quickly ripping the paper.

Any bits for rotary tools can be mounted and used in a pin vise.

There are ‘bits’ to hold sandpaper sheet for rotary tools.

I haven’t tried anything like that yet.

I can't let go of the idea of being able to do this stuff without power tools. I suppose you could use an old style hand crank drill, but it would wobble all over the place.

I like working by hand, or with hand tools…and actually use a hand crank drill that was my grandfather’s for other things and on rare occasions, but seems unpractical for use on SAK mods.

 

[Guy McVer]

Any bits for rotary tools can be mounted and used in a pin vise.

so...

pin vise + steep dremel cone bit = clean rivet removal

There are ‘bits’ to hold sandpaper sheet for rotary tools.

In a cone shape steep enough to sand down rivets without damaging the scale or bushing?

I like working by hand, or with hand tools

There is a definite appeal to working without any motor assistance. It feels more personal and it provides a greater sense of accomplishment.

 

[kamakiri.knives]

so...

pin vise + steep dremel cone bit = clean rivet removal

Lots of other profiles can work too. Balls, cylinders, ball end, tapers…

Just work slowly as you get near the outer surface of the rivet.

I’ve done vintage exposed rivet disassembly and not put a mark on the cellidor.

In a cone shape steep enough to sand down rivets without damaging the scale or bushing?

Yurp. Lookup ‘split sanding mandrel’ one that tapers to a small tip would do it.

There is a definite appeal to working without any motor assistance. It feels more personal and it provides a greater sense of accomplishment.

Agreed. When I take apart really old knives, it also seems very appropriate as they were very hand-assembled and often used similar hand tools to trim things.

 

[Hashishiin]

I'm just sitting here taking notes... I am about to assemble a workbench/working area, remodelling now, and I am basically starting fresh with nearly no tools. Good to have discussions like this to read, as eventually I'll start trying things like this with cheap secondhand SAKs, no problem to destroy some. Great advice on both the tools and the handheld methods. I have come to learn you can do more by hand than people around the internet usually say.

From my perspective it is all very impressive, though. If either of you two ever feel like undertaking a custom SAK build like the one(s) I mentioned... you know who to message.

 

[Guy McVer]

If either of you two ever feel like undertaking a custom SAK build like the one(s) I mentioned... you know who to message.

Not me, no. If I ever gave you the impression that I had any real experience customizing SAKs, then I need to apologize to you. I have only done one so far, and it was only one of the simplest customizations on a single layer knife as it only required the removal and replacement of one pivot.

I have to rely on the advice of experienced people like K kamakiri.knives , and other sources for all of my information. I hope that clears up any misunderstandings.

Also,

 

[kamakiri.knives]

You’ve both asked excellent questions…and have interesting projects and ideas. I’m certainly glad to help anyone open to my help. Sure beats trying to help someone who already thinks he knows…or a crowd of people with that mindset.

One example for modders I saw was many advise new guys that it’s ‘better’ to use a jig. Mostly for assembly, but also disassembly, I suppose. But being self taught in that regard, I’ve never used one and don’t need one, and honestly I don’t see the point. All I need are my hands and sometimes tools to assist and lever the spring open to seat the tool. I think that’s safer and easier to control over trying to pull springs against a block of wood barely holding the pins or bushings. JMO, but glad I didn’t follow that line of thinking.