Double-Ended Jack vs. Half Stockman vs. (my brain):

[pertinux]

Or, another Pertinux Pattern Ramble.

Rather than hijack Rockgolfer's thread (further), it seemed better to bring the following exchange here, and hopefully continue the discussion:

I made up a version with clip and coping blade, single spring a while back. Neat package IMHO.
This knife was based on a Remington 4103 however I exchanged the spey blade for a coping blade.
I would refer to this pattern as a "double ended jack" built on a stock knife frame.

... And here is where my brain starts to wibble-wobble, when the generally-understood "blades at one end of the frame" Jack designation is applied to a set-up such as this.

(It's okay if y'all would prefer not to try to explain this one to me again, Really Slowly and possibly with pictures. There's just no way, still, I'd be able to pick out the above knife as a "Jack" of any kind.)

To put it another way: this knife, built on the "stockman frame," is not a "half-stockman," why?

Ahem.

And/or, is there any equivalent "Poker Hierarchy" of pattern distinctives, whereby one can know which feature trumps another (or more) when it comes to nomenclature, and when? For example, why does "Jack" trump the "Stock knife frame, blades on opposite ends" in the pattern above?

As always, thanks for any light into the darkness.

~ P.

 

[Jack Black]

I've always been thinking the same in relation to my Easy-open Jack (2011 Bladeorums knife) P, why the easy-open feature is the one that names the knife, rather than the fact the second blade has a bottle-opener. If it wasn't for the EO feature, the knife would be called something else, and in my opinion the EO is less significant than the blade pattern.

Jack

 

[JAlexander]

I tend to think that the frame dictates the name, rather than the blade combination. That said, I'm sure I'll think of multiple exceptions to that belief after I hit 'post'.

 

[puukkoman]

Good question, Sarah, and I'm also confused by this... Why are some knives still "jack knives," with blades on both ends, regardless of what frame they're built on? And down the rabbit hole we go.............

 

[ken erickson]

Naming and names assigned to traditional pocket knives is muddy water indeed!

I think this thread can raise some good discussion about these names.

The best reference that I have found , as many already know , is LG4(Levine's Guide To Knives and Their Values,4th). While not the only reference available,I think he takes the best shot at trying to put names and the reasons behind these names down on the printed page. After studying and reading as much material as one can, you start to get a feel for what a particular pattern of knife is. You will always get folks that can submit a valid argument to the contrary. The waters are muddied by collector's, seller's, maker's and even by the cutlery companies themselves, both old and new.

Here is one example that recently comes to mind. The champagne knife. Many collector's and even maker's refer to a champagne knife as a bartender's knife. According to the online posting and writings of Mr Levine a bartender's knife is a smallish fixed blade knife for cutting limes.

All that being said I will address a few of the patterns raised here in the thread. These are my personal views and believe me, I have been wrong about knives and other things(ask my wife! ) so here goes.

For starters I think coining the term "half" for a whittler, stockman, even a congress is veering off proper terminology.
A premium stock knife in my mind has at least 3 blades, sometimes four, sometimes five and will always be built on a serpentine stock frame. In the case of the stockman, it is frame and blades that qualify it as a "stockman".

A double ended jack can be built on different frames, but what distinguishes it from a pen knife(which commonly have a blade hinging from both ends) is the length, generally over 3 1/2 inches.

Easy opener. I think in this case the easy open notch is the defining attribute. Some would argue that the knife is still a "jack" first and foremost that just happens to have the easy open notch feature.

While there is always going to be disagreement on names, I find this a fascinating subject that all can learn from.

 

[Jack Black]

Thanks a lot for that Ken. Interesting thread Sarah

 

[black mamba]

The example of mis-naming that comes most quickly to my mind (because I collect them) is the GEC Cuban Stockman.

By LG4, I'm sure this would be called a cattle knife due to the equal end frame, although the vast majority of cattle knives seem to have spear masters rather than clips. These knives do have the stockman blade configuration. The trouble for me comes because of the fact that GEC have named it a stockman. It's proper name is Cuban Stockman, just as mine is Jeffrey Lee. So when I refer to one in particular I call it a Cuban Stockman. But in a grouping of such knives, especially if there are other brands in the mix, I refer to them as cattle knives.

 

[ken erickson]

Jeff,

Great example! In my mind that is a cattle knife. While true that a large percentage of cattle knives sport spear master blades you can find many vintage examples that have clips.

 

[kc custom]

I'm in agreement with Ken on frame shape and possibly length because blade shape
is and can be all over the place. Everyone calls trappers the same with a wharnie blade,
or stockman with a pen instead of a spey. Some of this probably stems from today's
usefulness of blade shapes compared with say 70-80+ years ago. With the amount of
patterns out there and peoples views of what blade shapes could or should be we are back
at frame shape as much as anything. It seems once we eliminate the blades coming out of one end
"Jack" all sorts of names pop up while at the same time grouping a huge amount of slipjoint
folders "Jacknives".
Ken.

 

[ken erickson]

Take the 'cotton sampler" for instance.

Here we have a "jack" knife that is defined by the blade not the frame. Because of the specialized blade and intended use the knife is referred
to as simply a cotton sampler. Not a "Jack" that just happens to have a specialized blade.

 

[ken erickson]

I also wanted to add this;

Many may say, "what difference does it make what we call these knives?". These traditional knives are a passion shared by many including the great folks that frequent this forum. Tradition being the key word. We are interested in making, buying, collecting and using these knives for a reason. To keep our past alive. I believe it is just as important to keep the terminology alive just as we do the knives. RANT OFF! lol

 

[kc custom]

Take the 'cotton sampler" for instance.

Here we have a "jack" knife that is defined by the blade not the frame. Because of the specialized blade and intended use the knife is referred
to as simply a cotton sampler. Not a "Jack" that just happens to have a specialized blade.

And then what if it has a blade shape like a rope knife instead of the modified big spey blade
that we normally think of as cotton samplers. Pretty sure this thread could go on for a while.
Lets say we are trying to replicate a pattern, someone wants something switched from original
configuration, to them its that pattern where to someone else its not because whatever has been
changed. I'm headed for the shop---- Good thread though.
Ken.

 

[mike Berkovitch]

Take the 'cotton sampler" for instance.

Here we have a "jack" knife that is defined by the blade not the frame. Because of the specialized blade and intended use the knife is referred
to as simply a cotton sampler. Not a "Jack" that just happens to have a specialized blade.

Another example would be melon tester that is defined by it's blade or its special use (as well as cotton sampler).
Mike

 

[knowtracks]

I'm in agreement with Ken on frame shape and possibly length because blade shape
is and can be all over the place. Everyone calls trappers the same with a wharnie blade,
or stockman with a pen instead of a spey. Some of this probably stems from today's
usefulness of blade shapes compared with say 70-80+ years ago. With the amount of
patterns out there and peoples views of what blade shapes could or should be we are back
at frame shape as much as anything. It seems once we eliminate the blades coming out of one end
"Jack" all sorts of names pop up while at the same time grouping a huge amount of slipjoint
folders "Jacknives".
Ken.

Good insight Ken! I remember growing up my Grandfather telling me that ALL backspring folding knives are Jacks. Named after the frenchman who came up with the backspring in 1611. Hence the dive called a jackknife (to fold inward) or a 18 wheeler jackknifing. I know this has been discussed before and that the meaning of the word "Jack" has changed over the years. Now most "knife people" only call just a knife with blades on the same end a "Jack"

Dave

 

[pertinux]

For starters I think coining the term "half" for a whittler, stockman, even a congress is veering off proper terminology.

That's a helpful start. Thanks.

A double ended jack can be built on different frames, but what distinguishes it from a pen knife(which commonly have a blade hinging from both ends) is the length, generally over 3 1/2 inches.

Interesting. So fundamentally, it's a matter of size?

After reading the above post and having some time to think about it, I came to something that others have mentioned in the meantime:

It seems once we eliminate the blades coming out of one end
"Jack" all sorts of names pop up while at the same time grouping a huge amount of slipjoint
folders "Jacknives".
Ken.

Good insight Ken! I remember growing up my Grandfather telling me that ALL backspring folding knives are Jacks.

Returning to the "double-ended Jack" that prompted my questions, I realize that if I back out of the narrower (now-standard?) definition of a pattern with blades at one end (which I only came to understand through spending time here!), the above describes the nomenclature I grew up with. Had I run into Ken's knife earlier, I would've said, "Hey, look-- a double-ended jackknife."

Of course, if I'd encountered a stockman or congress knife, I'd likewise have said, "Hey, look-- a jackknife with two blades on each end!"

Some knowledge is more helpful than other....

(While driving, I also thought of the Cotton Sampler as a pattern most definitely defined by its blade. I'm in good company, here. As if I didn't already know that.)

I also wanted to add this;

Many may say, "what difference does it make what we call these knives?". These traditional knives are a passion shared by many including the great folks that frequent this forum. Tradition being the key word. We are interested in making, buying, collecting and using these knives for a reason. To keep our past alive. I believe it is just as important to keep the terminology alive just as we do the knives. RANT OFF! lol

Thanks, Ken. I enjoy these conversations very much, and appreciate the patience and help you and others bring to the discussion. I'm glad if further clarification, and agreement on shared terminology, helps in the bigger picture. (I do appreciate knowing correct terms-- "scales vs. covers" being just one very specific example, within pattern discussions...).

I've not seen Levine's 4th. Does it have a useful index? I'm not sure how much has changed from edition to edition, but if the earlier formatting is at all similar to the latter, it's indeed a book that requires study and extraction of information (and: could really use a good pattern index!).

I love the threads here that show actual, narrowed-down examples (in full color!) comparing and contrasting the different features....

~ P.

 

[ken erickson]

That's a helpful start. Thanks.



Interesting. So fundamentally, it's a matter of size?

After reading the above post and having some time to think about it, I came to something that others have mentioned in the meantime:




Returning to the "double-ended Jack" that prompted my questions, I realize that if I back out of the narrower (now-standard?) definition of a pattern with blades at one end (which I only came to understand through spending time here!), the above describes the nomenclature I grew up with. Had I run into Ken's knife earlier, I would've said, "Hey, look-- a double-ended jackknife."

Of course, if I'd encountered a stockman or congress knife, I'd likewise have said, "Hey, look-- a jackknife with two blades on each end!"

Some knowledge is more helpful than other....

(While driving, I also thought of the Cotton Sampler as a pattern most definitely defined by its blade. I'm in good company, here. As if I didn't already know that.)



Thanks, Ken. I enjoy these conversations very much, and appreciate the patience and help you and others bring to the discussion. I'm glad if further clarification, and agreement on shared terminology, helps in the bigger picture. (I do appreciate knowing correct terms-- "scales vs. covers" being just one very specific example, within pattern discussions...).

I've not seen Levine's 4th. Does it have a useful index? I'm not sure how much has changed from edition to edition, but if the earlier formatting is at all similar to the latter, it's indeed a book that requires study and extraction of information (and: could really use a good pattern index!).

I love the threads here that show actual, narrowed-down examples (in full color!) comparing and contrasting the different features....

~ P.

I also enjoy the discussion and conversations. I think this type of thread(long or short! ) has value here in this sub-forum. I try and remember that there is a constant influx of new folks here that are new to traditional's and this forum. After all being a part of this community is passing on what we have learned.

Ken Coats brings up valid points. Things do change in the world of slipjoints! Case in point; Lanny's clip, Backpocket and Wharncliffe Trapper! These terms have now become, and rightfully so, common pattern names.

As far as LG4 goes , I think it has a pretty decent index. How much is changed in earlier and more recent editions I can not say with certainty.

 

[Peregrin]

This is a great thread. Lots of good info. My thanks to all who are participating.

 

[ken erickson]

Here are some picture examples!

I consider this knife a "pen" knife. While being double ended the size and pattern is what makes it a pen. The closed length is 3 1/4

This knife is "double ended Jack" Due to its size.

"double ended Jack" Due to its size and frame. The frame is to robust to be consider a "pen" knife.

Many refer to this knife as a "half" congress. I believe it to be a "pen" knife due to its size. 3 3/8

 

[Will Power]

Here are some picture examples!


This knife is "double ended Jack" Due to its size.

I consider this to be a very desirable knife and wish a manufacturer would make them available! :thumbup:

Interesting points in this thread thank you, Will

 

[Modoc ED]

I posted this in another thread when someone asked about books on knives.

Modoc Ed said:

Some here will think it sacrilege but a book to consider is "Blade's Guide to Knives & Their Values" 7th Edition which is edited by Steve Shackleford. The content of it is 90% - perhaps greater - the same as Levine's Guide to Knives 4th Edition and can be had for around a 20-dollar bill. You can find it on the big book store sites.

The book does not have in index per-se but that can work to someone's advantage as it makes them search through the book for some information thereby causing them to absorb info on a wide variety of knives. We can discuss the knives in depth but sometimes, a book is always great as a go to for an expansion of what is being discussed in a thread.

LG4 is very desireable but it's fading availability and rising cost, when it can be found, is keeping it out of the reach of many newer knife enthusiast.

The Whittler is an interesting pattern. According to LG4, the pattern was not named by any manufacture but by whittler collectors themselves.