Dry sharpening

[becram]

Not having read the book yet, so kind of unsure what exactly is said, is there anybody else besides Razor Edge who, BASED ON TESTING, promotes dry sharpening?
Also, is the dry sharpening mentioned in the book for specific types of stones, while others need one kind of fluid or another? and how is cleanliness (clog-iness) of the surface addressed? (please tell me it's not "re-lap as needed")

 

[Dog of War]

Hoping somebody who's used Razor Edge hones will reply, because I've wondered about this too.

My guess is Razor Edge uses a different material and process to bond the abrasive in its hones. Or it would seem to me they have too..... the way most AO stones are made, they load up and tend to glaze if you don't use oil or water, and SiC stones break down too fast if you don't.

It'd sure be handy to have some stones that work dry without either problem. However I don't know if Razor Edge would have any advantage over diamond.

 

[Mtn Hawk]

becram, you don't say what book you are referring to. Is it the Razor Edge Book Of Sharpening by John Juranitch? If so, it's well worth buying. It's an excellent book and helped me immensely to understand sharpening theory and technique.

From what I read in forum posts not many people use oil for sharpening. Personally, I avoid any products that say to use oil. Too messy. I prefer sharpening dry to keep it simple. However, I think it's always best to follow the specific manufacturer instructions. I figure they made the product so should know best how to use it.

Right now I'm mostly using the Razor Edge hones and the Sharpmaker. Both are used dry. I use a vacuum cleaner to vacuum up the debris on the hones when it builds up. The Sharpmaker rods require water and some form of abrasive (see instructions if you have one) to clean up. I have a DMT diamond benchstone and hones that I usually use dry, vacuuming when needed, but they can also be used with water.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

I sharpen dry on diamond stones and synthetic stones.

I always soak water stones in water. It works better, definitively.

On natural stones, it really depends on the type of rock. I have some natural stones at home that seem to clog up and stop cutting in seconds, if I don't use oil on them (water doesn't help much). There are natural stones that have no such problem when used dry.

So, in short, I'm in agreement that one should sharpen dry, if the sharpening stone allows it. That means: synthetic and diamond always dry, water stones always soaked in water, and you should experiment with your natural stones to see which works best (go in this order: dry, water, oil).

 

[cbwx34]

I have used the Razor Edge stones and other AO and SiC stones dry. As long as you keep them dry, they work great. You can just lightly tap them to keep them clear. Sears (and I'm sure other places) has a smaller two sided AO stone for about $8, that works just as well, although the fine Razor Edge stone is finer than the Sears. Another thing I like about the Razor Edge stones is they wear very uniform. I have never relapped it... I just try and use the entire stone.

Razor Edge has been selling some of their stones on Ebay for a great price (razoredgesystems), but be warned, they are oil impregnated (I'm guessing a supplier error cause they've sold quite a few). These stones will clog. (I know cause I bought a set). Plus I left one out in the sun... and when it got warm oil dripped out of it like an old Harley. If you like sharpening with oil (some do) it's a great buy.

cbw

 

[becram]

Joe,
(read your FAQ)
OK, I'm one of those who "learned from Dad" on the oil stone. Over the past several several years, I've tried maybe five or six pieces dry. The Arkansas and ceramic and Norton pieces I've worked with dry all clogged up, over time, where the most work was being done, and needed some kind of cleaning. How do you maintain a debris-free surface during the cutting operation?

 

[Native Justice]

I use Nortons cheepo combo synthetic, a Norton India, as well as a Arkansas soft dry. The trick is to briskly brush the surface with a wire or nylon brush before they glaze up badly. If they do glaze, use some garden variety 120grit sandpaper on a flat surface and rub the stone surface until clean (also flattens the stone if you take it all the way). Good luck.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

becram,

It's so long since I used natural stones that I don't remember how I used to clean them. The best and easiest way to clean synthetic stones that I've found is to use steel wool impregnated with detergent (like SOS or Brillo detergent pads). It seems like the steel wool would get "sharpened" by the stone and clog things up even worse, but actually the stones get cleaned very quickly. Works much better than using a plastic scrubbie, which is what most people use.

 

[Mtn Hawk]

cbwx34--

Thanks for the info on AO and SiC stones other than the Razor Edge. I've only been using RE and wondered if other types worked just as well. The small Sears two-sided AO stone might be just what I'm looking for for carrying on my wilderness trips. I haven't used the RE fine yet but it might be too fine for a utility edge.

I have the same experience as you regarding the RE stones maintaining their uniformity but I'm also careful to use the whole stone so it doesn't dish out in any one place. Do you find that other stones hold their uniformity as well as the RE? Also, if you don't mind another question, if you had to re-lap the RE stones what would you use to do it?

Interesting about the oil-impregnated stones. I would have thought RE would not have wanted their name associated with those.

Thank you.......

 

[Jeff Clark]

The only hones I consistently use dry are ceramic rods. At least some of the time I use a fluid on everything else, even diamond hones. I don't think much of any "expert" who categorically sees a problem with wetting hones. The implication is that all those guys who made their living with sharp tools for hundreds of years were idiots. This includes the guys who make straight razors. Sharpening is a broader field than a lot of people appreciate. There are times when an edge sharpened with a file may be your best alternative.

Most people only recognize one problem that occurs with a hone, clogging or debris build up. When a hone surface loads up with metal or abrasive debris it doesn't cut as fast. The debris fills in the gaps between the abrasive grit and smooths out the surface. The abrasive can't cut as deep. A complementary problem is that large bits of debris can make the hone lumpy and gouge or dent the edge. When using a dry hone you often need to brush or wipe it to try and reduce this debris buildup. On some hones this just isn't enough. The pores in the hone get filled and need to be cleaned with something like cleanser and water. If you hone with water or oil the debris doesn't stick in the pores as much and your hone cuts quicker. When the abrasive is diamond bonded onto a metal plate that debris can be hard on both the hone and blade. On diamond and some other types of hone I like to hone under running water to keep the hone surface flushed clean. This gives a quick and uniform honing action.

The other problem that you have with hones is rounding off (dulling) of the abrasive grit with use. This is a less familiar concept when we deal with hones, which is funny since most people understand this problem relative to sand paper or sanding belts. With sanding belts you simply buy another belt when it wears down. With a stone you need to break down the surface to expose fresh grit. That is one of the big advantages to using liquid on a hone. It helps to loosen up the top layer of hone grit and releases it to expose fresh grit. Oil stones are designed to break down at a moderate rate when you hone with oil while water stones are designed break down at an even faster rate when you hone with water. The liquid also helps to prevent the loose grit from clogging the hone surface. It is real conspicuous what happens if you hone on an oil stone that has oil in the surface, but no fluid oil on the surface. The stone breaks down due to the oil inside the surface, but clogs the surface since there is inadequate oil on top.

Almost any hone will work a bit better with a fluid on the surface. It can't do much for ceramic hones, but it isn't likely to hurt. I mostly use water or alcohol when I use a liquid since they are neater. If I use an oil-impregnated hone I will use oil or kerosene (or sometimes alcohol will work). A dishwasher can usually remove oil from a stone surface if I want to try switching to water. I often hone under running tap water to reduce debris build up. This can cut faster. For finish work on an oil or water stone I let a slurry build up since that contains finer broken grit. I usually finish on dry ceramic or by stropping on submicron diamond paste.

 

[Dog of War]

I don't think much of any "expert" who categorically sees a problem with wetting hones.

I've wondered about that too. Besides it seems to me that if it were true (big if IMO) it would only make a difference if that was the final step of your sharpening (I almost always put on a microbevel with a Sharpmaker or fine ceramic rod, so his argument seems irrelevant for me anyway.)

I'm still curious about the Razor Edge stones however. If they work well dry, don't load or dish badly, I could see that as a plus especially out in the field. Be interested to know what's different about them, thinking it's a different bond.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I don't think much of any "expert" who categorically sees a problem with wetting hones. The implication is that all those guys who made their living with sharp tools for hundreds of years were idiots.

I don't think idiots just they were wrong. J.J. has his reasons, he did edge retention comparisons using a large user base and also had micro-graphs so his conclusion seemed reasonable. He also realized that fluids were commonly used, he just concludes it is out of habit rather than performance, which also isn't unreasonable.

However since his work a number of people have shown that edges sharpened with "wet" abrasives can be very high quality and have also shown micrographs, Lee and Verhoeven and either J.J. is unaware of these or refuses to acknowledge them, these are both critical aspects of scientic research, you can't have tunnel vision.

Alvin Johnson uses stones dry, including common oil stones, he even burns the oil out of the hones to use them dry. He will also use a hone in a highly loaded state as a finishing step which has to be acting as a smooth steel I would assume. His knives are also some of the very sharpest I have seen. He generally works with very hard and very fine grained steels.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

I'm always old fashioned when it comes to views on sharpening but here within the last two months I did buy an Edge Pro for the first time. I had a Sharpmaker for years but I really don't use it except for serrated blades. I have never quite taken to ceramic for some reason. It doesn't seem to do much to me but then again I've only used it for final touch ups and just don't much prefer it even for that. In the field I'll use a well used EZELap diamond sharpener and have been quite happy with the results there for bringing the edge back in the middle of a field dressing chore or some other such thing. I usually strop on leather for the final edge when at home.

As for dry stones or dry sharpening. I have never found a better set than the Razor Edge dry hones. These things work exceptionally well IMO and I only wish I could fabricate one to fit on my Edge Pro. That would be the ultimate for me. I really feel these Razor Edge stones are better than the water stones that came on my Edge Pro. I know I am much happier with the edge they produce. Here lately since buying the Edge Pro from Ben Dale I've been using it to set the bevel the way I want it with the course water stone and finishing on the Ultra fine dry hone by Razor Edge followed by a few strops with my leather and some Flex Cut polish compound loaded on it. The results have been super.

STR

 

[DGG]

becram, you don't say what book you are referring to. Is it the Razor Edge Book Of Sharpening by John Juranitch? If so, it's well worth buying. It's an excellent book and helped me immensely to understand sharpening theory and technique.

From what I read in forum posts not many people use oil for sharpening. Personally, I avoid any products that say to use oil. Too messy. I prefer sharpening dry to keep it simple. However, I think it's always best to follow the specific manufacturer instructions. I figure they made the product so should know best how to use it.

Right now I'm mostly using the Razor Edge hones and the Sharpmaker. Both are used dry. I use a vacuum cleaner to vacuum up the debris on the hones when it builds up. The Sharpmaker rods require water and some form of abrasive (see instructions if you have one) to clean up. I have a DMT diamond benchstone and hones that I usually use dry, vacuuming when needed, but they can also be used with water.

Here's that book's info. You don't have to buy it.

http://users.ameritech.net/knives/

 

[becram]

Joe, Jeff, everybody else, thanks for the info.
I think I have enough to get to exploring for a while. It'll be interesting to see what happens when I try it dry.

 

[Mtn Hawk]

I'm still curious about the Razor Edge stones however. If they work well dry, don't load or dish badly, I could see that as a plus especially out in the field. Be interested to know what's different about them, thinking it's a different bond.

Good question. I'd like to know that, too, and what they're made of, but that's probably a "trade secret".

...I don't know if Razor Edge would have any advantage over diamond.

Maybe in how much pressure can be applied?

DGG--
Good info on the website but I didn't see a lot of similarities to the book.