Dumb Newbie Technique Question

P

Piper Jon

Joined
Sep 20, 2001
Messages
12
G'day, y'all!

Been a bit since I've introduced myself, but I thought I'd go ahead, jump in, and show just how much of a newbie I really am! :D

I'm still learning very basic openings and closings and dexterity drills, etc., that I gleaned from Clay's site. I can do a Vertical Basic (ricochet of back of hand, ricochet off index finger to open) actually pretty okay.

My question is this, though. I seem to be beating the crap out of my hand with the latch handle. Oddly, my finger is fine (no REALLY!), but I've got this Balisong shaped bruise on my hand below my index finger knuckle. Obviously I'm doing it WAY TOO HARD, but if I do it any with any less force, it just flobbles. (My very technical term for a muffed throw or technique). What the heck?? I must be missing SUMPIN.

And for the collecting crowd, my only Bali right now is a Rostfrei. Cheapo $10 from the flea market :barf: :rolleyes: , but it seems to be pretty okay for learning these techniques. And if the thing goes flying from my fingertips into, say, Lake Ouachita, I'm not out much. And I keep seeing them all over the place; any feedback on my cheapies? Any tips for keeping them at least serviceable?

Okay, enough prattling for now.
Pj
 
You'll have to work on slowing down enough not to hurt your hand,and then work on re-accellrerating the balisong to open fast.
 
First and formost PJ, there are no dumb questions (well, there are a few, but we'll let you know ;)).

ChungSan is right. You can learn to stop (or slow down) the bite handle before it hits your knuckles (or fingers) with practice. It's just getting a better feel for your knife and learning how to tilt your wrist to make it stop mid-swing. But, you'll find as you learn more tricks and begin putting them together, that avoiding hard ricochets won't get you far. (this is partialy a matter of style and technique). I promise that if you continue to beat that balisong on your hand, the pain will eventually numb. I just now tried to slam my knife as hard as I could against my knuckles and fingers, but the pain isn't there like it used to be. I've got a lump on my middle finger knuckle that's about 1/8th of an inch high that has virtually no feeling anymore. That's what you're looking to get. Patience and a little teeth gritting will fix that pain problem. Just take care to let any bad bruises heal a little before you slam 'em again. If the pain is getting to be just too much, put a padded band-aid (sport bandaids I think) where it hits your hand while you heal.

As far as your "china cheapie" goes, as long as you feel you're learning things, its fine. But I'll bet anything that it'll break FAR before you lose interest in balisongs. Your best options are as follows:

-- $25 - Get a Jaguar and repin it using the instructions at balisongxtreme.com in the tips section. A Jag can last you for years with regular maintenance. It's how I learned the first 2 years of practice.
-- $100 and up - Go crazy and buy yourself something that will last. Now is a prime time to do this, as there are SO MANY diffent balis coming on the market right now. Personally, I say pick up a BM42, or any BM for that matter. If you do the math, one knife at $125 will outlast 5 jaguars at $25 a piece, plus it's a nicer knife to manipulate!

Have fun flippin' Jon, and keep the questions coming!
 
You have some very good answers there already. Practice, practice, practice. You'll build up a tolerance eventually. Trying Blasto's experiment of wacking the frag out of my knuckles with the heaviest bali I have (BM45shd) proved that I too have built up the tolerance even tough I rarely richocet against knuckles anymore(practicing for a double edger). I remember in the beginning sometimes I'd nail myself so bad I'd drop the knife. You might try relaxing your grip and fore arm (kinda like a drum roll for you drummers) and see if that helps your control a bit.
 
I had the same problem for a while, but not with the handles, but the back of the blade (spine), so I took a file and eased down, but not quite rounded the spine. It took some of the bite out of it when I start getting all CRAZY!!:p
 
yeah, Blasto basically hit the nail on the head.

There's about a month or half a month there when you've gotta adapt to it. After that, all you'll have to worry about is getting cut
 
And then getting cut is fun because they heal within about 10 minutes (maybe neosporin is in my blood :D).
 
Piper Jon- If you hold it closer to the pivots, it shouldn't hurt as much (assuming that is your problem).
 
Welcome to the Bali-Forum....hope you enjoy it! I was just fooling around a little and I lean heavily toward what Penguin said...(about gripping the "safe-handle" closer to the pivot point). I'm guessing you will be able to practice longer without pain sensations. I just thrashed some fairly large (and heavy Balis) with basic stuff, and what you are describing sounds like you are grasping too far back on the handle..., which causes significant impact on the middle knuckle. Keep 'em swinging. :)


"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what the [NEED]"
 
Originally posted by Mykl Clark
...You might try relaxing your grip and fore arm (kinda like a drum roll for you drummers) and see if that helps your control a bit.
Click to expand...

Mykl Clark, that's a very good point. Learning to hold the balisong only as hard as you need to is a very important technique to learn. The more relaxed your muscles are, the greater the range of control they will have. The more control you have, the more intuitive the learning process is. Learning to relax also helps when you begin to put more than one move together.
 
Hey y'all, let me say again, you all ROCK. I read and put into practice many of the replies here to my question, and let me tell YOU, it has helped IMMENSELY.

Seems I had several things going at once. I certainly was gripping the thing too tightly, which I have no doubt is a usual beginner flaw. Reckon I was worried about dropping it on my foot, or some such! Since I was tight-gripping, that isolated the wrist and probably even the elbow a bit, making my motions very chunky, and my openings erratic.

Instead of instinctively compensating by relaxing my grip, I evidently tried to do so by increasing my upward force (remember, this is regarding the V Open). WHACK right on the knuckles. And WHAT a whack it was, since I was not holding it as close to the pivot point as I should have. No WONDER I'm bruised! And since I was holding closer to the end of the handle, I'm sure that contributed to my feeling like I had to death-grip the thing.

So, now instead of "click-THWAP-clatter-schlonkk-ouch! :( ", it's sounding like "chick-click-CLACK... :D " WOW!

Now, if I can just get my damned thumb out of the way on the "Quick and Quiet" (hold bite-handle, swing safe into palm), I'll have TWO ways of doing this. OOOO!!!! Scary!! :cool:

Peace and thanks, folks. I'll have more coming, I'm sure.

Pj - THWAP free for almost 48 hours!
 
Congratulations!!!! See, nobody thought your question was dumb, it is just something that we all have to learn to get better at manipulating these things, don't ever be afraid to ask a question, if it is a stupid question we will undoubtedly let you know. ;)

Take it easy and keep flipping! :)
 
Hey Piper Jon, one more thing I would like to point out on this subject. While choking up on the handle helps you from busting a knuckle in the beginning stages, IMO it makes the moves look less fluid to the observer. This is because the handle is now limited in its range of motion since your finger is so close to the pivot point. As your skills improve, you should gradually move your hand back from the pivot point until you can do a vertical basic without the handle or blade ever coming in contact with the back of your hand or knuckle. This is impossible to do when you grip near the pivot point, because it does not allow you enough time to change the momentum of the swinging handle in the opposite direction.
 
I do not agree. I don't hold the absolute top, but my fingers are gripping about where the first large skeletonized hole is at the top. I think I actually even heard Clay mention he holds his at about the same place.
 
Tips are good guys. But keep in mind that everybodies got their own style. And everybodies got different hands as well. We can make suggestions to help someone get a "feel" for their blade, but we can't tell them the exact right way to do it. Yes, I think I remember reading that Clay chokes up quite a bit when manipulating, but have you also noticed how often he ricochets? That appears to be the "backbone" of his style (not to say he can't do just about anything) and he does quite well with it. :D ;) But (hope my memory is correct), Mr. Gollnick is a fluid type of guy. Lots of graceful lines and never-ending swings. My point is that arguing over grip style is like arguing over pizza toppings. It's a matter of opinion and taste.

Piper, try everything. Choke up, then pull back. Mix it up and you'll eventually slide into your own unique style.
 
That’s a good point, Blasto. I definitely think that everyone should find their own unique style instead of just copying what they see. I would be pretty disappointing if a lot of us met at a knife show some day and we all did the exact same moves with the same technique. The point I was trying to make is that as you get a better feel for the knife, you should be able to switch it’s momentum in the air without having to rely on it hitting the back of your hand all the time. Personally, I often let the knife make contact with the back of my hand when manipulating with my BM 42, but when using a double-edged blade you don’t have that option.
ChungSan, I think that you and I have a different definition of what choking up on the handle is. I was assuming everyone meant having your hand almost directly on the pivot point so that there is no way the handle could hit your knuckle. If I grip the first hole at the top, the free handle can still hit my knuckle, and I can still do the move without the handle or blade hitting me. Anyway, I’m glad you admire Clay’s style and emulate it in your own routine, but I hope that people here will experiment according to what suits them and not think that just because Clay does something a certain way that it is Balisong manipulation law.
 
I'm sure we all are quite different. I don't know if anyone knows this or not but let's take something simple like a punch. There are fourty three components that make up a single punch. That makes for quite a few possibilities. Some components are clear cut while other are not. I'm sure that applies to where we grip as well. Most times I just prefer the balance that the balisong give me when I grip somewhere close to the top two holes.

No hard feelings meant.;)
 
ChungSan,
I hope my post didn’t come off like I was offended or upset that you disagreed with my opinion (although in actuality it seems as though we both hold our knives pretty much the same way). If everyone agreed on all the topics we discuss here, I think this forum would be pretty lame. Like I was saying before, it’s the diversity of techniques that make Balisong manipulation so entertaining to watch. The thing about the Internet message board situation is you never know how your words will be interpreted on the other end of the computer, and without seeing how someone acts in person it is difficult to say whether or not they have received the message in the way you intended to send it. I meant no offense by my statements, and took no offense from yours.:D
 
Greetings, y'all!

In reading the responses to my post, I'm struck by two things.

First, as a newbie, of course I'm easily intimidated by posting newbie stuff to a list of experts and officionados. Yet, I've been made to feel very welcomed to this group, and the open offer for questions and such is heartfelt. I personally appreciate that!

Secondly, I also very much appreciate everyone's efforts to ensure that they are understood correctly by everyone else. I've been on really great fora in the past that were utterly MURDERED by misunderstandings and hurt feelings that could have easily been avoided. As an outsider looking in, that imparts a feeling of safety from ridiculous flame wars that can make a discussion group a really unpleasant event. Right on, y'all!

Of course, that makes me wonder too. In my other online life, I'm a student of Iaido, and an addicted lurker and occasional poster on the Japanese Sword Forum on Sword Forum International. And interestingly enough, they have the same conceptual thing going: intense discussion, but polite and with mutual respect. Anyone not abiding by this simple code are dealt with quickly and with dispatch. (In Iaido, drawing the sword is Nuki Tsuki: to kill on the draw. Same deal.) Wonder if that's a blade-person thing? Hmm...

Okay, sociology discourse over. Thank you all for making me feel so welcomed here.

Pj - been a Social Worker for ENTIRELY too long
 
I just realized your from Little Rock. I'm a 3rd degree black belt in the American Taekwondo Association. Our national headquarters is right in your hometown.:)
 
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