Dutch - Oregon Trail

C'mon Kevin, you sell your fellow countrymen short, what about the stock exchange, the corporation, mechanistic thinking, privatized military... all Dutch in origin.:) I'm of course just trying to give it to you, the old hard time, pay no attention to me. All I meant by identity - which is a strange and even out of place qualification to give an axe in any case I admit - is this example, known as a kantrechtbijl:
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Apart from its antecedents, the form is distinctive and developed in the time of flourishing and even domination by the Dutch, could I say 1600s, and then recedes as the country looses its prominence. Along with a few examples, the one preserved in Sweden being the best, these axes are also easy to see in paintings and art works from the period, your print by Jan Luijken one of them. Please excuse me for the deviation into axe-land obscurity.
I know what you mean Kevin
Dutch axes in general are not the prettiest axes but strictly functional
and you should see the beastly hunk of steel I've got standing in my garage for re-handling, forged by one smid in the dorp of Drenthe in the years when things were going less well for the nation on the world scene.
 
When you want a good documentation on these axes and other tools the book from H. Janse, Van Asks tot Zwei, has got much in it and of course van der Sterre's book on Dutch planes.
 
But over time small blows still became a lot of impact. Although I cant say this theory is sound.

No,i'd say that this is not sound theory(i'm not a metallurgist so say this cautiously).
But i believe that the impact must be deformative,enough to cause dislocations,in order to qualify as "work-hardening".

Most steels nowadays like 4130 of 4140 are steel in name only, not because of carbon content. Because that would make them fall in the mild steel category

About Mn,it's true that in large % it aids in embrittlement of alloy but there must be a Lot of it for that:

Small amounts of manganese improve the workability of steel at high temperatures by forming a high-melting sulfide and preventing the formation of a liquid iron sulfide at the grain boundaries. If the manganese content reaches 4%, the embrittlement of the steel becomes a dominant feature. The embrittlement decreases at higher manganese concentrations and reaches an acceptable level at 8%. Steel containing 8 to 15% of manganese has a high tensile strength of up to 863 MPa.[38][39] Steel with 12% manganese was discovered in 1882 by Robert Hadfield and is still known as Hadfield steel (mangalloy). It was used for British military steel helmets and later by the U.S. military.[40]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese#Steel

Many if not most iron ores contain Mn in small amounts,and long before it was used deliberately people have been inadvertantly benefiting from it's presence in steel.
And again,in instances where the Mn content was high,it did improve the Potential for work-hardening,and people did figure this out and used it.
However,it was incidental,and based on random luck vs intent,and so it would be spurious to imply that it was a methodical,intentional practice.

Actually,a number of other elements that aided embrittlement were used,P most notably,with more of the deliberate intent ...

AISI 41xx series alloys are ones alloyed with Chromium and Molybdenum(not sure what brought this about?).
They get their specific qualities from these elements,as Well as their C content,and have None whatever relation to "mild",as in non-hardenable,"simple" carbon alloys.

All in all,i think that this discussion of alloying elements is outside the scope of this discussion,and(speaking for myself)outside the level of expertise.
 
When you want a good documentation on these axes and other tools the book from H. Janse, Van Asks tot Zwei, has got much in it and of course van der Sterre's book on Dutch planes.

I would be interested in reading this book you mention, Ernest.
René from Duco Tools sent this to me with some axes a while ago. Thankfully it is set up split-page bilingual Dutch-English:
Schaven.Paal.Kahrs.Collection


Schaven.Paal.Kahrs.Collection

It's Dutch, old tools, and I'm in Oregon - not to detract from any other axe talk, of course.:thumbsup:
 
Agent)H only now do I see the van der Sterre book has really become an object of desire selling on the second handed market for in the hundreds of dollars, which is of course a matter of pure insanity given what it is - not to detract at all from that because it is a serious piece of research. Anyhow I have some contacts and have put out my feelers to see what's available with a reasonable price tag and when I get word back, these people are notoriously unreliable/unorganized but who knows, I will pass it on. Don't hold your breath though because I'm away for a month now - actually will be in your neighborhood spending some time - but in time will check these pages and tell you what I come up with. In the meantime, though I know nothing of your financial station, please don't go spending 300USD on a copy for gods sake.
 
The original handle as shown is a beauty, still your cherry is made above all respecting the wood you have on hand rather than reproducing what you had and may have wanted from material not suitable. It's a fools game to try and impose your will. We can see the value in a good handle, one that feels good in the hands, and gain some appreciation for the never ending search.
 
The original handle as shown is a beauty, still your cherry is made above all respecting the wood you have on hand rather than reproducing what you had and may have wanted from material not suitable. It's a fools game to try and impose your will. We can see the value in a good handle, one that feels good in the hands, and gain some appreciation for the never ending search.

The search is multi-faceted I am finding more and more Ernest. These axes that are not native to my area (or era, for that matter) yet interest me greatly. The handle will hold that head tight when I am finished and my knuckles will be away from harm. More over I now better understand some of the nuances to hanging that style of eye/axe. Agreed, while not prime wood, it is the experience that is worth more than the axe.

Do those markings on the blade represent 2 swords by any chance? If so so I might know the maker....

Kevin, I think the markings on the poll are 3 digits - 1 2 and one I can't make out. You are thinking of the mark on the blade? What maker were you thinking of?
 
and my knuckles will be away from harm
This is surely the conventional understanding of having a handle sweeping out like that. It's a possible reason in some situations where it gets done like that, the question being is it the most likely, I rather doubt it is a universal explanation for a sweeping handle, there are others as well.
 
Having barked my knuckles a few times with non-offest handles I've become keen on using offset handles for hewing work. But I'm interested to hear what other advantages offset handles offer, Ernest.

One drawback to the offset handle is that the axe wants to twist in your hand. You have to continually apply force to counteract this. That's why I prefer offset handles to be less round, more elongated ovals or octagons.
 
This is surely the conventional understanding of having a handle sweeping out like that. It's a possible reason in some situations where it gets done like that, the question being is it the most likely, I rather doubt it is a universal explanation for a sweeping handle, there are others as well.

Having barked my knuckles a few times with non-offest handles I've become keen on using offset handles for hewing work. But I'm interested to hear what other advantages offset handles offer, Ernest.

One drawback to the offset handle is that the axe wants to twist in your hand. You have to continually apply force to counteract this. That's why I prefer offset handles to be less round, more elongated ovals or octagons.

I would never presume to speak for Ernest but his comment made me think about the offset. Realizing his time zone is off of mainland US, hopefully he can weigh in soon.

Having an offset handle seems like it keeps your knuckles off your work by nature but there are some other benefits that might be had. Perspective as to function and form?
Maybe there are wood jobs that require the offset for other reasons and the knuckles being out of the way but acts as a necessary "by-product"?

I think of the Finns using the piilu to finish interior walls - when you work into a corner an offset handle might be handy but the that style of axe doesn't accept the handle in the other end of the eye given the tapered socket, so you have to flip your body around and use your weak grip into a corner. In one of the videos Bob posted here on the forums, a guy removes the handle and flips it around to work into a tight spot. I am not sure the axe he used was Finnish by design but it illustrates the idea. Maybe Swedish?
Hot%20shot%20Fin.jpg


So, maybe the focus of the offset can also be to access the work more than "knuckle protection" but it happens anyway?

Larger hewing axes on longer handles, in instances where your hands might not really ever get close to the work, maybe it's easier on the user to run all day with an offset handle? Instead of standing on your work as you swing stooped over or running your hip tight against the log would will wear on one. An offset might bring ease the process for the user?

Square_peg, your comment on the handle shape, I wonder if the handle could be shaped as an elongated oval as you said but even shaped into a "tilt" or "cant" in one direction to fit the hand but force the natural grasp more in plane with the bit? It would have to be deliberate and little counter-intuitive compared to most striking tools where you want your hands in-line with the bit.

Like I mentioned, I am just thinking aloud.
 
A smoothed cant shape might be useful.

Just making the lower radius of the oval a smaller diameter than than the upper radius does fine for me. Some old axe handles and especially hatchet handles were made this way. I've started doing this to my hangs and I like the feel. The smaller radius fits in your first knuckle better and gives you some leverage for twisting. I think it also helps with registering the axe positiion in your mind just like an octagon handle does.
 
These are some really good points Agent_H & Square_peg and all valid and all right. Perspective, balance, grip, comfort all can cause us to want a modified handle form, from one that deviates from straight and symmetrical.
Rather than rack my brain going through all the possible conditions I will mention just two where personal experience;) suggests alternative explanations for an off-set handle. When I'm working the timbers from round to square, high, low, surfacing or rough wasting, broadaxe felling axe bandhacke, it makes no difference, my inside hand is always up high adjacent to the worked surface. Racking knuckles, it happens, but not that much and it's a minor affair, a bit of blood gets left behind and when it happens I hardly ever notice it until I see afterwords the blood on the beam, wondering in the first instance where that came from. In fact the prospect of it happening is worse than the actual occurrence and is part of the mental baggage that needs ejecting at the outset. Much more important to me and of greater consequence is that I got a better posture in relation to the work from all perspectives. I am not in contradiction to the work that's needing to get done, that is to say producing a vertical and straight surface.
hpl16181-e1529477772571.jpg
Next I have to think of the wooden shoe maker I know who happens to be officially the №1 one in Holland and beyond. Here as well the off-set has nothing to do with protecting his hands. It would be an odd thing if his knuckles were in danger of hitting anything during his work. The advantage is a clear sight and good body position in relation to the work on the billet standing on its chopping block.
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