Easier damascus patterns?

AddictChris

AddictChris

Joined
May 18, 2019
Messages
43
Howdy,

I made my first damascus this week. It was my 2nd attempt, my first attempt a couple months ago had a big delamination right through the middle, but I may be able to salvage parts of it for a guard on the knife I made from my 2nd attempt.

I dont have a power hammer or hydraulic press, so my layer count is low, but ladder patterns seemed more accessible, although I lost a LOT of metal to scale, and a good bit to cutting and grinding as well, and of course it was a lot of work.

Anyway, I'm really happy with how the blade turned out. When I was sanding before the etch I was thinking it was a lot more trouble than it was worth, but after the etch I suddenly had a whole new attitude :)

Now I'm kind of hooked on making this stuff.

I'm thinking raindrop might be another one I could do, although again I would lose a ton while getting enough layers hammered down.

Anyone have any other patterns that are more accessible to a straight hammer and anvil guy?

Heres the blade I forged from my ladder pattern. Its 6" from shoulders to tip. Spine is 3/16" thick at the base, with a nice distal taper. I could have forged the billet out more for more length, but I wanted to grind the bevels to make the pattern more interesting, and I also didnt want to stretch it out more as my layer count was low. Its 1095 and 15n20.

stretch22.jpg

stretch23.jpg
 
Last edited:
Don't forge myself but twist seems like a good idea for hammer and anvil (and big pipe wrench) guy.

Do you have a welder? If you do, you could do some mosaics.
 
When learning, try random, ladder, and twist.

Heavily hammered random can be fun to do and look pretty cool. Work the billet as usual through the drawing out steps. When the billet is still about twice as thick as desired, switch from the drawing/forging hammer to a big ball peen. After working the snot out of it with the ball peen, flatten/straighten it up just a bit then grind it smooth. Once that is done, finish forging the blade as normal with a regular forging hammer.

When doing twist, make sure the bilet is SOLIDLY welded up. It should show no lines along the sides. Grind it clean on all four sides (and inspect closely) and then forge it into an octagon. Clean it up again and then bring it to welding heat and twist it. When it stiffens, stop and put it immediately back in the forge. Don't let it cool to below red until all twisting is done. You should twist it as much as it seems possible. Straighten it up gently before each heat. To twist - put one end in a vice and grab the other with a modified pipe wrench. You can make a twisting wrench by welding a piece of pipe on the head of the pipe wrench so it has two handles. It helps if you forge the ends as squares when making the octagon.

Also, try damascus san-mai with a core of high carbon steel similar to the steel in the damascus. If the damascus is 1095 and 15N20, use a 1095 core.
 
Chris, that looks good. I've only done a couple of low count Damascus, like you I use the "Baking Soda" (Arm 'n Hammer) power. I did both my billets just flat and the etched design is not so good. With the new forge I'm planning another attempt, perhaps around 20 layers? Either a twist or ladder pattern. The random Stacy mentions sounds like something I can do.
 
Ken H> said:
Chris, that looks good. I've only done a couple of low count Damascus, like you I use the "Baking Soda" (Arm 'n Hammer) power. I did both my billets just flat and the etched design is not so good. With the new forge I'm planning another attempt, perhaps around 20 layers? Either a twist or ladder pattern. The random Stacy mentions sounds like something I can do.
Click to expand...

I had 40 layers. I actually worked on 2 billets at the same time. Each had 10 pieces. Drew them out, cut, re-welded and had 2 billets of 20 layers. then I forge-welded those together and got one 40-layer billet. Of course by now I must have lost a layer or 3 to scale. After grinding my grooves in each side and then flattening the now-accordion-shaped billet I probably only had about 20 (visible) layers left in the billet which was just over 1/4"

the first time I tried making ladder I just cut nearly straight-in grooves and the result was I had some cold shuts, and also the patters that resulted had lines buncing up or really far apart alternately, so this time I really rounded out the grooves and was real careful flattening it. the rounder grooves evened out the spacing of the layers and helped prevent any cold shuts...

This is that billet before I flattened it...

ttw5.jpg
 
AddictChris said:
but I wanted to grind the bevels to make the pattern more interesting
Click to expand...

Grinding into a ladder is going to do the opposite. The majority of the character is at the surface of the billet. The layers in the center have the least amount of change. So forging a ladder down will preserve more activity.

Grinding into a twist can do what you're saying, because there is more activity below the surface. If I were doing what you're doing, I'd practice doing twists, and when you have them down, try a multibar turkish twist. You can keep your individual billet sizes small and manageable, and welding them together by hand isn't too much of a chore since you're trying not to distort things at that point. Even a very low layer stack of 3 or 4 twists can be very intricate when finished.
 
kuraki said:
Grinding into a ladder is going to do the opposite. The majority of the character is at the surface of the billet. The layers in the center have the least amount of change. So forging a ladder down will preserve more activity.
.
Click to expand...

As you can see in the photo's, grinding into the ladder did exactly what I thought it would do. It made the lines appear to zig-zag, which IMO is more interesting than when they are all running parallel to each other.
 
kuraki said:
Grinding into a twist can do what you're saying, because there is more activity below the surface. If I were doing what you're doing, I'd practice doing twists, and when you have them down, try a multibar turkish twist. You can keep your individual billet sizes small and manageable, and welding them together by hand isn't too much of a chore since you're trying not to distort things at that point. Even a very low layer stack of 3 or 4 twists can be very intricate when finished.
Click to expand...

Definitely going to give the multi-bar twist a shot :)
 
Your blade shows 40 layers can make a very nice pattern. Looks good. Thanks for posting the photo of the billet showing how you ground the ladder portion in. The results in the blade speaks for itself - GREAT JOB.
 
AddictChris said:
As you can see in the photo's, grinding into the ladder did exactly what I thought it would do. It made the lines appear to zig-zag, which IMO is more interesting than when they are all running parallel to each other.
Click to expand...

If it did what you wanted it to that's all that matters.
 
I love bold pattern ladder. I did a cutlass that I twisted then laddered and if cane out looking great. What thickness was your strips to start with?
 
JTknives said:
I love bold pattern ladder. I did a cutlass that I twisted then laddered and if cane out looking great. What thickness was your strips to start with?
Click to expand...

Yeah, some of the super-high layer count stuff looks awesome up close but then 5 feet away it’s hard to see. I’m fortunately I like bold patterns, because without a power hammer or press that’s about all that’s within my reach :-)

My initial stacks were 1/8 x 1 x 6
 
Here is a tip for keeping the scale loss down and speeding up folding:
The enemy of forge welding is scale.
Scale forms when the billet cools below around 1600°F.
Never let it get that cool and you can weld and fold endlessly many times.

To do the below method, having a helper or fellow smith to spell you is a really good idea. Take turns each heat and it will go fast. Share the tasks like brushing the slag/scale away and doing the hot cutting.
Make up the initial billet - say five to seven bars of 4"X2"X 1/4" . You can make a big knife from that size.
Weld the corners or ends up while clamped in a vise .
Weld on a rebar handle.
Use whatever flux method you prefer, but I really suggest you try using hydrocarbon (kerosene) flux method and NO borax. I won't go into that here, but it is easy to find a previous thread or online info on doing it. Borax works fine, but increases the amount of junk you can get trapped in the welds and sends flying streams of lava in all directions.
Bring the billet up to welding heat with a good 5-10 minute soak.
Pull the billet and immediately brush it off with a wire brush then set the welds by gently hammering from end to end. Keep welding until the billet looses its bright glow and starts dropping to a cherry red.
Immediately put it back in the forge for another soak. It won't take as long to get it back up to welding heat again, but be sure to give it a minute or two soak time.
Pull the billet when evenly heated again, brush off, and continue the weld with heavier blows and work it all over.
As it drops in color toward cherry red, put it back again.
Repeat until the billet is reduced by half the thickness.
At this point most folks would let it cool off, clean it up with an angle grinder, cut and stack the pieces, and then re-do the whole above process. That is when you loose the most material to scale and grinding.
However, if you just brush it off with a good stiff wire brush as you pull it from each heat, and use a hot cutter in the hardie hole, you can cut the billet almost in half while still at welding heat in a few seconds. Re-heat for a minute or so, brush off quickly, and push the billet up and over to fold it back on itself. Stick it back in the forge to re-heat to welding heat and set the weld as before. If you are a borax guy, just give it a light sprinkle. If used the hydrocarbon method in the beginning, just leave it bare and brush it off.
Continue as long as your arm holds out. The important thing is to NEVER let it cool down into the lower red range. You can take the 5 original layers up to 160 layers in five folds pretty quickly. Jim Batson and I did a 640 layer billet in seven folds in about 30-40 minutes.

When you are ready to take a break, pull the billet and let it cool to red ( 1400-1500°F), then quench it in any type oil. This will keep the amount of scale down and blast off the scale that does form. Just leave it in the oil until you are ready to go back to folding and drawing out.
Clean it up with an angle grinder or on a coarse belt when you are ready to fold some more.
You can also hit it with the angle grinder while it is red hot during the welding if you have an area you are concerned about. This is a good way to clean up the sides.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Here is a tip for keeping the scale loss down and speeding up folding:
The enemy of forge welding is scale.
Scale forms when the billet cools below around 1600°F.
Never let it get that cool and you can weld and fold endlessly many times.

To do the below method, having a helper or fellow smith to spell you is a really good idea. Take turns each heat and it will go fast. Share the tasks like brushing the slag/scale away and doing the hot cutting.
Make up the initial billet - say five to seven bars of 4"X2"X 1/4" . You can make a big knife from that size.
Weld the corners or ends up while clamped in a vise .
Weld on a rebar handle.
Use whatever flux method you prefer, but I really suggest you try using hydrocarbon (kerosene) flux method and NO borax. I won't go into that here, but it is easy to find a previous thread or online info on doing it. Borax works fine, but increases the amount of junk you can get trapped in the welds and sends flying streams of lava in all directions.
Bring the billet up to welding heat with a good 5-10 minute soak.
Pull the billet and immediately brush it off with a wire brush then set the welds by gently hammering from end to end. Keep welding until the billet looses its bright glow and starts dropping to a cherry red.
Immediately put it back in the forge for another soak. It won't take as long to get it back up to welding heat again, but be sure to give it a minute or two soak time.
Pull the billet when evenly heated again, brush off, and continue the weld with heavier blows and work it all over.
As it drops in color toward cherry red, put it back again.
Repeat until the billet is reduced by half the thickness.
At this point most folks would let it cool off, clean it up with an angle grinder, cut and stack the pieces, and then re-do the whole above process. That is when you loose the most material to scale and grinding.
However, if you just brush it off with a good stiff wire brush as you pull it from each heat, and use a hot cutter in the hardie hole, you can cut the billet almost in half while still at welding heat in a few seconds. Re-heat for a minute or so, brush off quickly, and push the billet up and over to fold it back on itself. Stick it back in the forge to re-heat to welding heat and set the weld as before. If you are a borax guy, just give it a light sprinkle. If used the hydrocarbon method in the beginning, just leave it bare and brush it off.
Continue as long as your arm holds out. The important thing is to NEVER let it cool down into the lower red range. You can take the 5 original layers up to 160 layers in five folds pretty quickly. Jim Batson and I did a 640 layer billet in seven folds in about 30-40 minutes.

When you are ready to take a break, pull the billet and let it cool to red ( 1400-1500°F), then quench it in any type oil. This will keep the amount of scale down and blast off the scale that does form. Just leave it in the oil until you are ready to go back to folding and drawing out.
Clean it up with an angle grinder or on a coarse belt when you are ready to fold some more.
You can also hit it with the angle grinder while it is red hot during the welding if you have an area you are concerned about. This is a good way to clean up the sides.
Click to expand...

Those are awesome Tips!

Thank you very much. I’m going to literally give it a shot tomorrow :-)
 
Stacy, those are some GREAT ideas, and just in time for me. I've been thinking it's about time for another billet attempt since my new forge seems to be working so well. I'm guessing that method would work for a San Mai billet also to prevent excessive scale build up?

I think I've read a good bit of that before, but it was never explained the way you did. It all finally clicked. I do have one question, why do the brushing as the billet is pulled from forge? Is it to prevent any scale that's formed from being hammered into the billet?

Ken H>
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top