easiest damascus for a first timer?

Bailey Knives

Bailey Knives

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Oct 18, 2004
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I am planning on making a coal forge this spring, and I plan on taking a stab at making a damascus blade (no pun intended)...(I lied, pun intended) :) . As a first timer at damascus, should I consider layered damascus, or cable? I am sure this has been covered elsewhere, but if there are any tips anyone can give to save me time and aggravation, please feel free to tip away. Thanks, Matt
 
My first try was with cable and it turned out pretty good. I only found one slag inclusion, which I think is pretty good for a first time and the fact that the cable was old and nasty. Just remember to flux flux flux, and DON'T try to hit it hard, just firm. I just found some stainless sheet to put in the bottom of my inswool forge so I'm itching to try some more. The firs go around was pretty hard on my forge. I had to replace the soft firebrick in the bottom of my forge because the borax ate big holes into it. I knew it would too, but I just had to try the cable:)

Matt Matlock
 
Just like Matt said I always start first times a my shop out with cable. It is even easier if you can find new cable. Weld up ends and put a handle on it. Flux and wire brush ever time after hitting it. I start hitting at the handle end a follow the strands to the other end. Good Luck :D
 
LONG SORRY igloo fires a brighter than most be sure to wear good UV glasses it can blind you
welding is a bet tricker in a coal forge than in gas forge i think the best way to forge weld in is to create a igloo with a good bed of coke in the bottom when this is burning good place green coal over it with blower on high it will smolder and smoke like the devil
, sprinkle a little water over the smoke not much just a enough to get the surface wet soon the smoke will change to fire in a few minutes if not place a poker down from the top to open it a bet let burn for a little the hole time sprinkle water over the fire and around the outside edges so as to not burn up all the coal what your doing is making more coke but its building up like a mound keep this up till the mound is about 10 to 12 “ ' tall as you get near the height you need to sprinkle water heavy to bond the coke together , punch a hole in the front like a door the flame will come out the door and the insides is like a small room this is a igloo the heat in side is very hot and reducing ,
place the cable in the hole being carful not to break the igloo down , ( no need to clean cable) the fire will clean all grease and dirt and rust is iron oxide nothing to worry about ( I know I will get flamed over that statement) , if your getting things to welding heats / as soon as you place the cable in the door the flame coming out will get quit large and sound like its about to blow up but it want keep it in till the flame reduces to normal this is the time to flux the cable for welding .place it in a vice and unwind so some flux will get in side( IT WILL ANYWAY ,but this speeds thing up a bet run blower so as to have a flame coming out the door place cable back in after tightening cable bake up .watch till flux bubbles / its at welding heat a that point , bring out - brush off surface flux and twist in a vice tighter re flux and bring up to welding heat this time tap with light blows as George as said hard blows will drive the pieces apart not together , reason this is being done.
i think its would be good that you know what has just happened so ill take the time to explain . if your still reading at this point you are interested in making cable welded steel .
when the flux is bubbling it moving small particles as will as a mild acid effect to the steel cleaning it, it will only do this a particular temp which is the same temp for welding steel so very convent for sure . also at this temp they is a fine layer of molten steel on each surface of the steel if you hit the cable to hard you will move the surfaces to much and lose the molten steel that is what makes the weld so tap tap tap .
as the bar get tighter you can hammer harder but get it together first. back to long story.
After you think its going good stop and re twist the bar back up tight you do this for 2 reasons, one to get it fatter the other to bring back the twist ,as you forge cable it tends to unwind the pattern –nothing wrong with this if that what you want but if so its best to do that after your sure its welded good .

after you feel you have good welds weld a few more times .it should feel solid under the hammer

Page 2 later I have to go to work now

If some one will post the pictures ill make them to show the process needed to make good cable in a coal forge
bowie 16 days Damascus free
 
Thanks for the info guys. I am dying to try forge welding. I am also looking forward to seeing the pictorial, Ron. One question. The anhydrous borax, is that the same stuff in the 20 mule team borax that I can buy at the store, and if not, were can I get what I need? And are there any sources for good knife cable? (ok 2 questions, or was that 3?) When I finally build the coal forge and try my hand at this, I will be sure to post pics, even if it turns out ugly.
 
anhydrous borax is like the 20 mule team borax but it has no water in it (anhydrous) . just get the 20 mule team stuff. It will try to pop and bubble off of the metal as it loses the water but it works just fine. I think you can bake it in your kitchen oven at about 250 and end up with anhydrous borax... until the humidity gets back in it. There was some info on that at www.anvilfire.com.

As for the cable you want improved plow share (1084) or extra improved plow share (1095) cable 1" to 1 1/2" in dia. Anything smaller will be real small when it is all welded up. you can look for "wire rope" in the phone book to find new stuff. To find used, look up any crane operators you can find. They are required by law to restring their cranes every so often so they generaly have some layig around their yard. If you tell them what you plan to try with it they will probably say "cool" and give you 6-8'. Ask me how I know :D

Matt Matlock
 
Page 2
The use of wire rope
I have used wire rope for a very long time in knife blades , in 1990 Wayne Goddard Had put together a small booklet on( Basic bladesmith Information )in it he told of wire rope for knives .
I to this day thank him for the information in that small booklet ,
I took Wayne Advice and learned to weld wire rope and I feel its some of the best steel that you can build a knife from I have yet to find a easer way to get a great preforming steel with that great pattern welded look and as a matter of fact its closer today to the old ways Which was soft and hard steel welded together to build a strong blade and a very hard blade ,
To be a good student of the craft I feel one really needs to learn all he can about the product he builds not just the hopeful out come, but its inter makeup , why is it a good steel ? why use it , what’s makes it good for a blade steel , what’s its down side ,what is the makeup of the steel ,what alloys , on and on it`s fun when you really know why your have chosen wire rope ,or any steel for that matter .

Yes I know it’s a introductory steel for pattern welded steel students ,but don’t for one second think its not a great steel for blades it can be learned in a very short time with a easy heat treatment with great results good for short blades or swords it’s a very stable structure when learned and done properly ,
We will cover a few thing that for a new guy wanting to get a good blade would most likely need to know .just to have a feeling for the steel and what your really working with
. Wire rope come in all sizes from pencil size to 3" and in ship yards even larger but they to large to work with .
As has been told by Matt a good size is about 1" or 1 ½ this is a good size to learn on .
The reason people like George and other teach cable to a new guy is they know when done the student will have a good blade or know that he can after learning a few facts and getting a feel for the fire it takes a little time to master but well worth it and . for another reason we will touch on . The size of the strands will determine as to how hard your steel will become in heat treatment the number of strands can determine the strength of your blade as you prefect your skills in making this size you will go to smaller sizes because I feel the more strands the stronger but the smaller strands have less carbon when completed .so you have to learn to weld with less heats at welding temp to slow down carbon loss . That said we will try to explain / as a strand is at welding heat they have a molten layer that was understood that’s what makes the weld when in contact with another strand they bond together making a solid bond the carbon has been either moved to center of the strand or just burnt away , either way this thine layer is now pure Iron the bright seam that you see when the blade is complete , this is also soft /but very strong as strand weave in and out making a maze that interlocking it all together and very strong .
Its has been said that about .oo5 is lost to iron from each strand when welded so when learning the process this depth would or can get deeper and more carbon loss can take place .
Im hope this is of some help and I hope that you will try making cable Damascus its really better than most give it credit

Page 3 tomorrow ill tell or try to how you can help save carbon loss and carbon migration
Bowie 17 days Damascus free
 
Page 3
First let me tell you I have no formal training in metallurgy or nor do I clam to know all there is about cable im like all of you im learning as I go so if I sound head strong on a point it due to feed back from 15 years of working with it and keeping notes of my findings for the purpose of doing it better
The way`s to loss carbon and if you heat it( to many times) you will not have carbon to get the blade hard enough to make a good blade
we all hear this and it is a problem , they most often cause of carbon loss is overheating at long periods or extended exposure to oxidizing atmosphere all the above you can be kept under control if you know what and why . And pay attention to what’s happening

Let take the over heating / this is allowing the steel to reach above welding temp sto the point that your burning carbon // easy to do in a coal forge btw , some times if not carful it will sparkle
with sparks going in all directions this is carbon burning for real this is the worst conditions to get the steel.
If this happens its no longer good for knife steel , yes I have heard that you can save it if you get it fast enough but I have found it will show up just at the wrong place and well come back to bit you in the but just toss it
again we have a good indicator with the flux to know temperature if we learn when it will bubble most likely you want burn steel to the point that its of no use ,.
Now if you allow it to soak at that temperature for a long period time it will cause the decarb seam to go deeper in the strand losing carbon to the weld seam .
Then there is the reducing atmosphere, the reducing atmosphere is low in oxygen or rich in fuel
the more oxygen in the fire the mor likely you will create the conditions to deplete carbon . Its that simple .

The trick is to get the bar welded as fast as you can and not take the steel higher than you need to get it to weld , after you know your welded you can lower the temps a bet to insure that you want l undue carbon .

The nature of the decarb seam will help you in keeping carbon in the strand if you forge at the wright temp this is a learned process ‘ again the over heating will make carbon move the iron will resist the carbon at lower temp that at high temps yes you can with heat cause the carbon reenter the iron to a degree cable that shows no silver seam has been heated to the point that the carbon has reentered the seams you will keep carbon in the strand id you keep temp lower tham high welding temps or at welding no mater how many time you reheat it, it will steel show a decarb seam

Bowie 18 days Damascus free
 
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