Edge angle vs Edge Retention

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Conventional wisdom says that lower edge angles provide better initial sharpness, while higher edge angles give you better edge retention in the long run. While it's a complex subject that involves many factors, I believe the conventional wisdom is wrong in most cases, and I'm certainly not the first person to express this view. For EDC and kitchen tasks, I believe that the vast majority of knives can handle edge angles as low 12 dps and will cut better and longer than they would at 17+ dps.



Blade geometry > Steel composition + heat treat? Next up, I plan on pitting a blade steel with relatively low inherent edge retention (e.g. 14c or NitroV) at 12 dps versus an edge retention beast like Maxamet or S90V at 17 dps. Should be interesting!
 
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Yes, The cutting edge retention and cutting ability will be superior with the lower edge angle, However, this is still an inverse relationship with durability. Durability will be significantly better with thicker edge angles.

Good job with your testing.


I did some similar testing two years ago.

I cut 3/4" manilla rope in single draw slices in a logarithmic fashion while stoping to measure the BESS sharpeness at the same amount of cuts to see the loss of sharpeness over a fixed amount of rope cuts.

However, I was testing a 17° per side factory edge which does have a different edge finish which seemed to have smoothed out in testing to the point where I could no longer cut in a single draw slice on the very thick rope as shown on the graph.

CrF4C2O.jpeg

The lower edge angle was superior in maintaining sharpness throughout cutting and the thicker edge angle was very difficult to cut the rope in comparison.

So, I would say that we get an improvement in cutting retention and cutting ability but not durability.

Dr Larrin did a knife edge impact test 5 years ago.

AEB-L is one of the toughest knife steels on the market when he impacted the edges we can see significantly.ore chipping with the lower edge angle versus the thicker edge angle.
chipping-resistance-vs-edge-angle (1).jpg



When we measure the area of damage of the chipped area and graph out the data it looks like this.

IMG_20240105_102137.png


We get a higher area of chipping damage with significantly less foot pounds of energy when using a lower edge angle compared to a thicker edge angle.

So we can't have a low edge angle that can also be said to be durable. It is an inverse relationship.
 

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So, I would say that we get an improvement in cutting retention and cutting ability but not durability.
If I understand you, you're defining durability as the ability to survive impact, yes? That makes intuitive sense to me, and of course Larrin confirmed it in the experiments you posted. I wonder if the results would be the same with respect to impacting something like a cutting board, as opposed to something most folks are less likely to encounter, like a brass rod? One way to find out I guess. :)
 
If I understand you, you're defining durability as the ability to survive impact, yes? That makes intuitive sense to me, and of course Larrin confirmed it in the experiments you posted. I wonder if the results would be the same with respect to impacting something like a cutting board, as opposed to something most folks are less likely to encounter, like a brass rod? One way to find out I guess. :)

No, it's not just impact.

If the lower angle edge accidentally makes contact with something "not cuttable" like a rock on the ground or a metal staple in cardboard, It will be more susceptible to taking edge damage through deformation or chipping than if it was at a thicker angle (If all the variables are accounted for)

This is an important concept to understand for fine-tuning the edge angle for a given user's preference or how they intend to use it.

It's one of the reasons why there is no universal edge angle, it just depends on the person using it what their preferences are, what they use it for, how careful they are with their edge or conversely how careless they are for their edge.

A lot of good professional knife sharpeners do this intuitively with their sharpening work for customers. When they receive a customer's knife that shows significant damage they will increase the edge angle to a thicker angle. Without surprise, the customer is pleasantly happy with this new thicker angle for how they use it.

On the other hand, if the customer's edge looks like it's been worn smoothly with little to no damage than that customer may benefit from a lower edge angle since the primary mode of of edge retention loss was through actual cutting not by misuse.

So, a good sharpener matches the edge angle to the failure mode. So again, there is no universal edge angle.

In conclusion, it is an inverse relationship between cutting ability/cutting edge retention and durability/toughness.

We get more cutting edge retention with lower edge angles at a cost to the toughness of the edge.

To wrap it up, if we want more cutting edge retention we have to use it more judiciously and be conscious of what our edges are making contact with.

Most folks seem to have amnesia when it comes to remembering what their edge may have had contact with to cause the damage that mysteriously appeared as a chip.

If we want maximum durability we need a thicker edge yet, then the punishment will be the cutting ability and cutting edge retention gets obliterated.

However that kind of user isn't really cutting things anyways as much as they are bludgeoning things, so, they are happy as long as it doesn't chip.

In the end, I'm not going to make a knife at 13° per side and give it to somebody who is going to use it to breach a car door and dig a hole in the ground followed by using it as a throwing knife in his backyard. I'd give him a 90° per side edge 😂

We match edge angles to the failure mode and the end user is the greatest variable of all
 
Excellent points, BBB. I guess my view is, if someone is cutting on something like glass, or porcelain, or steel, it's going to destroy the edge no matter what angle the edge is at. Also, I'd rather cut with a sharp af edge with a few micro-chips in it than a dull one that's smooth from tip to heel. Let's call the narrow-angle edge semi-serrated and call it a day!
 
Excellent points, BBB. I guess my view is, if someone is cutting on something like glass, or porcelain, or steel, it's going to destroy the edge no matter what angle the edge is at. Also, I'd rather cut with a sharp af edge with a few micro-chips in it than a dull one that's smooth from tip to heel. Let's call the narrow-angle edge semi-serrated and call it a day!
I agree with you. I definitely prefer the lower edge angle, however, in my journey with all of this knife stuff it's been fascinating to study the people that use the knives almost more than the knives themselves because everybody uses them so differently and has different experiences with them, even with the same conditions.

I believe it was Murray Carter that said something about every individual end user should lower the angle as much as they can until it chips in their knife use and then increase the angle from there. So, it's like people creating their own "custom angle" for the maximum performance specifically for how they use the knife which will be different things of course for different people not to mention it will be different with different steels and heat treatments etc.

I think while these complexities can make the subject frustrating It also adds several layers of depth that keeps things very interesting over many years of trying out different things and different combinations.

Endless fun.

Keep up your testing and thank you for sharing.
 
So we can't have a low edge angle that can also be said to be durable. It is an inverse relationship.

Pretty much sums it up, IMHO.

To draw a somewhat wooden analogy that most people can intuitively understand, it's easier to break the point off of a pencil sharpened at a more acute angle than one sharpened at a more obtuse angle (or to bend/roll over the point on a pencil with metallic lead as its "graphite"). In both cases, the more acute-angled point will also wear down or abrade faster.

All else being equal, the more acute the angle, the smaller the cross-sectional area of the material there is to resist shear at a given distance behind the apex.
 
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