Edge trailing vs edge leading vs back and forth

[MichaelMyers]

Which motion produces the keenest edge in your experience? Wicked edge recommends edge trailing strokes while Lansky recommend edge leading. Japanese technique uses back and forth.

 

[Fanglekai]

Depends on what you're doing.

 

[Rey HRH]

I vote back and forth for quicker sharpening and final strokes edge trailing and lighter. Murray Carter does it that way. I like the idea for for the final strokes you're taking away the possibility of the edge going directly against the abrasive but still being refined with the edge trailing strokes..

 

[bucketstove]

Which motion produces the keenest edge in your experience? Wicked edge recommends edge trailing strokes while Lansky recommend edge leading. Japanese technique uses back and forth.

Hi,
Only the last few strokes set the sharpness (cutting the burr off, microbeveling),
the stroke you use before doesn't matter too much
scrubbing is the fastest
the grit at which you apex matters

the type of abrasive you use dictates what kind of stroke you can use to finish
if you're using a leather type strop, you "have" to use edge trailing or you'll cut into the strop
if you're using "soft" waterstones, you "have" to use edge trailing or you'll cut into the stone
if you've got hard abrasives like sharpmaker, edge leading

You can achieve equal "keenness" with all techniques

Finishing edge leading is easier as burrs form easier edge trailing

 

[HeavyHanded]

Which motion produces the keenest edge in your experience? Wicked edge recommends edge trailing strokes while Lansky recommend edge leading. Japanese technique uses back and forth.

If the abrasive has any mobility to it, edge trailing will produce the finer edge. If its a hard fixed abrasive, a trailing pass will tend to form a burr, so a leading pass is best.


For speed sake a scrubbing pass is best, but the emphasis should be on the trailing component. This is helpful no matter, as the trailing pass will result in less break off of diamond or bonded abrasives, and less chance of gouging softer waterstones.

 

[Megabassx7]

I use edge leading all the time and alternate sides as I hit the 600 all the way through the uf stone and I am more than happy about how sharp my edges get

 

[flphotog]

I've been using back and forth since I got the KME, it's what they recommend and it's been working great.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

For fast & heavy grinding, I prefer a back & forth 'scrubbing' stroke, with the edge diagonally oriented to the stone for broader, more stable contact and steadier control of the angle.

For finishing/refining the edge, I prefer edge-leading only (usually diagonally oriented), except as noted by Martin (HH) for loose grit stones or sandpaper; then edge-trailing for those.

With sandpaper, I have at times used edge-leading to clean up burrs, but with a minimum of passes and an extremely light touch to avoid cutting the paper or even scraping abrasive from it. Practicing edge-leading on sandpaper, for these reasons, is actually a good 'training aid' for developing the control and light touch for all sharpening media. Cutting the paper or seeing grit being scrubbed off by the blade's edge is very obvious 'feedback' for seeing what you're doing wrong (angle too high or pressure too heavy).


David

 

[cbwx34]

Which motion produces the keenest edge in your experience? Wicked edge recommends edge trailing strokes while Lansky recommend edge leading. Japanese technique uses back and forth.

Wicked Edge shows edge trailing in their general instructions.. but it's not a rule on what makes the keenest edge. If you visit the WE forum, Clay has done some testing that shows an edge leading finish can produce a sharper edge.

 

[eKretz]

From what I've read, edge leading passes always lead to slight "chipping out" of the edge on a microscopic level (only really viewable well with an electron microscope). However edge trailing passes lead to a foil/wire edge being produced. So for me at least, when doing the early work, I hone back and forth or even sometimes do circles. For finishing up, I either go edge leading and very short passes at the end (usually do this if not using a pasted strop afterward) or edge trailing for only a very few passes after that to add even a touch more keenness. If you can bring the edge out to where a foil/wire is almost ready to form but doesn't, you're at the max, but the edge won't hold up for long under heavy work there. Honestly if you are going to be using a pasted strop afterward it's really pretty much inconsequential.

 

[REK Knives]

If the abrasive has any mobility to it, edge trailing will produce the finer edge. If its a hard fixed abrasive, a trailing pass will tend to form a burr, so a leading pass is best.


For speed sake a scrubbing pass is best, but the emphasis should be on the trailing component. This is helpful no matter, as the trailing pass will result in less break off of diamond or bonded abrasives, and less chance of gouging softer waterstones.

Wicked Edge shows edge trailing in their general instructions.. but it's not a rule on what makes the keenest edge. If you visit the WE forum, Clay has done some testing that shows an edge leading finish can produce a sharper edge.

This. If you really want to see what's going on at the apex w/ different abrasives and stones, check here.

 

[MichaelMyers]

Great info guys. Question was assuming finishing strokes on hard sharpening stone or diamond plate. I do understand edge trailing is the only option on strops and softer surfaces. In my limited experience I tend to get the best apex with scrubbing motion as opposed to edge leading. But it could be simply due the speed of removal and consistent angle.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Great info guys. Question was assuming finishing strokes on hard sharpening stone or diamond plate. I do understand edge trailing is the only option on strops and softer surfaces. In my limited experience I tend to get the best apex with scrubbing motion as opposed to edge leading. But it could be simply due the speed of removal and consistent angle.

I get fastest grinding with a scrub, by a large margin. That said, I find the longer I do this the more I emphasize the trailing component of that scrub, to the point where the leading pass is really just to maintain contact and give me another point of reference for tactile feedback.

Even on softer media I will always use a leading pass for burr removal before switching to a few trailing passes to finish off. For quick utility touchups on softer waterstones or wet/dry, I tend to only use a trailing pass till the edge feels sticky - strop on paper and its ready to go. If I inadvertently raise a burr, light leading to remove and then back to a few trailing to finish.

I have some harder waterstones that are so close to being too hard for trailing passes its almost a push. The more I use them the better able I am to make use of this (trailing pass) but still takes more QC time than I'd like, and the edge is nearly as good finished with a leading pass. So my general rule is if its practical on a given abrasive I'll go out of my way to make use of it, if not I won't put up a fight.

For ceramic, diamond, India stone, Arkansas - even if the setup grinding is done with emphasis on trailing component they get the final finish with leading passes only.

Martin

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Great info guys. Question was assuming finishing strokes on hard sharpening stone or diamond plate. I do understand edge trailing is the only option on strops and softer surfaces. In my limited experience I tend to get the best apex with scrubbing motion as opposed to edge leading. But it could be simply due the speed of removal and consistent angle.

That was sort of how I transitioned into edge-leading freehand sharpening. I'd previously spent a lot of time with sandpaper sharpening (edge-trailing), then found out how relatively easy it was to hold the angle with a diagonal back/forth scrubbing technique, and then eventually started following that with a few edge-leading passes to clean up the edge. In all of that, the hands gradually got used to the feel of maintaining the angle, and it became literally intuitive in doing so with the leading passes in the end. Edge-leading produces the cleanest edge for me now, often not even needing stropping afterward.

I'd also noticed how much my hands 'learned' (on their own, seemingly) from simply stropping a blade, how to maintain a decent angle in all the other aspects of sharpening. It's kind of amazing what the 'muscle memory' can learn on it's own through repetition, even if it seems like the conscious and deliberate control from the brain isn't quite there yet. One day you wake up and everything is suddenly working a lot better than it did the day before, and it's a mystery as to why(?) or how(?) that came to be.


David

 

[MichaelMyers]

I get fastest grinding with a scrub, by a large margin. That said, I find the longer I do this the more I emphasize the trailing component of that scrub, to the point where the leading pass is really just to maintain contact and give me another point of reference for tactile feedback.

Even on softer media I will always use a leading pass for burr removal before switching to a few trailing passes to finish off. For quick utility touchups on softer waterstones or wet/dry, I tend to only use a trailing pass till the edge feels sticky - strop on paper and its ready to go. If I inadvertently raise a burr, light leading to remove and then back to a few trailing to finish.

I have some harder waterstones that are so close to being too hard for trailing passes its almost a push. The more I use them the better able I am to make use of this (trailing pass) but still takes more QC time than I'd like, and the edge is nearly as good finished with a leading pass. So my general rule is if its practical on a given abrasive I'll go out of my way to make use of it, if not I won't put up a fight.

For ceramic, diamond, India stone, Arkansas - even if the setup grinding is done with emphasis on trailing component they get the final finish with leading passes only.

Martin

What is the reason for emphasis on trailing when scrubbing? And by that do you mean higher pressure when edge trailing?

 

[Bob6794]

The one that feels comfortable to you and provides the results you desire is the right answer for you.

For me this means back and forth to remove metal, and than I end it with either alternating edge trailer or edge leading depending on what feels right at the time. Either way the job isn't done till it's sharp.

 

[HeavyHanded]

What is the reason for emphasis on trailing when scrubbing? And by that do you mean higher pressure when edge trailing?

Yes, more pressure on the trailing component, on the leading component just enough to maintain contact. Either way I'm talking about light amounts of force. 4-8 ozs at the mid to high end, maybe a pound or so if resetting the bevel on waterstones or vitreous stones, and 1 or 2 ozs at the low end. Personally and as near as I was able to measure, much below 1 oz and the ability to accurately measure with a scale becomes problematic so this estimate is ballpark - it becomes increasingly difficult to maintain reliable contact.

For burr removal edge leading, amount of pressure is as light as possible, probably at or just under the 1 oz mark. And then if finishing with trailing only passes is going to be super light as well.

In my hands:

I find I get better angle control with this scheme, on both sides of the edge, less blade wobble. I'm not sure if there's a logical mechanical explanation for that, relative to controlling friction drag or if its just me. I can run it faster and get better grind speed with no sacrifice in angle accuracy. When I attempt to reproduce the faster hand grinding with equal force coming and going my angles are not as clean.

It raises a burr faster, or maybe 'produces evidence' of a burr more rapidly is a better way to state that.

It gouges the stone less if a waterstone or softish vitreous stone, also causes somewhat less dishing. It tears out fewer abrasives on wet/dry and potentially tears out fewer abrasives from diamond plates.

Martin