Electrician Knife Pattern Research
- Thread starter Codger_64
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Dennis is a great guy. He and I have been discussing the camper knife used in the Ulster Prince Albert offer. I dont think he visits the boards but can be reached at the Oregon Knife club web page.
http://www.oregonknifeclub.com/
Tell him Larry sent ya...
TTYL
Larry
http://www.oregonknifeclub.com/
Tell him Larry sent ya...
TTYL
Larry
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-9/1211078/100_0723.jpg Hi, heres a pic of the ric-nor electrician knife half hawkbill blade really well made knife.heard they were an electrical parts supplier up in boston area thanks
Hello Codger_64,
Excellent piece on the wonderful electricians knife. I would like to update you on a few items in the military section of your piece.
The TL-29 is Tool, Lineman, Item 29 not the date. The first TL-29 designation was dated 5/1/19 as Issue A
The kit you refer to in the TE33 was first issued in canvas, then leather and later in canvas duck webbing. Initially the TL-29 was issued with the TL-13 pliers. The pliers had a wire stripping function added to the cutters behind the jaws and became the TL-13A edition.
Yes, they are still a standard item in many versions of different tool kits for the government. The reason they were issued in boxes was for uses by other services and in different size kits. An electrician on a ship in the Navy would not need the TE-33 belt kit.
I know that Klein Tools marketed two knives they called electricians knives as early as 1904. The two bladed version used the locking system of depressing the main blade to unlock the screwdriver blade. The Cattaraugus liner locking patent, 825,093 was issued in July 3, 1906 so it prevented any other company from using it. Of course if the government wanted knives built with the patent they could have them and not infringe on the patent. All others would have to wait until 1923 when the patent expired to use that device so all early electrician knives use the alternative locking system. I don’t know if that locking device was ever patented? The Klein Tools version of the knife was made by Empire Knife Co.
In 1929 the military tested a larger version on the TL-29 called the TL-116. If was the size we know today, prior to this the TL-29 was a much smaller knife. The Signal Corps knife was prone to breakage when being used as a screwdriver if a very tight screw was encountered. The torsional force applied would pop out the pins at the blade pivot end and the knife would spread apart. To fix this a larger pin and load bearing surface was required so the knife was enlarged. This knife in the testing (Made by Schrade) used the older locking system of the typical Signal Corps knife not the liner lock. It was not adopted, one of the reasons was when gripping the knife hard for a tight screw the user would unknowingly depress the main blade and unlock the screwdriver allowing it to fold on the operators fingers. A better locking system was required. The next year, 1930 the liner locking system was added and adopted as the new TL-29 Issue B. For some unknown reason they reverted to the old designation of TL-29 but without a revision number like an A1 or A2 as such. It remained and still does through all it’s revisions the TL-29.
All versions required a lock in the military specifications as was the bail a part of the specs for the military. I have found these knives with wood, bone and plastic handles all with TL-29 markings of some type. The requirement for the marked shield was dropped on 8/5/42 with the TL-29 being impressed into the wood directly. All the various specifications were rewritten into one dated 5/25/1945 falling under Army Signal Corps Specification 71-569, it was now standardized. During the changeover from military to government wide specifications it was redrawn on 5/5/1954 and standardized as the MIL-K-13419 (SigC). At that change among other things they required the impressed TL-29 should be filled with a permanent white filler and varnished on top. This helps to date post war models as being filled with some color, white or gold. The knife companies (mainly Albert Baer) tried to eliminate the TL-29 along with the Engineers 4 blade, the Navy and AAF flyers 3 blade, the Mountain Troops 5 blade, the Quartermaster Stockman 3 blade and every other type of knife in the military standards. He reasoned with the government they could up production making only one knife pattern. He told them they should standardize on one design, the all steel MIL-K818 that he was producing in the Kingston name at the time for the Marine Corps. At the monthly meeting of the Pocket Knife Industry Advisory Board meetings it was a topic of concern for every member. The Army performed two tests on the all metal knife but the Signal Corps shot it down for the simple lack of a locking screwdriver. Most of the other knives were eliminated at that point for the remainder of WWII but the TL-29 continued in production and still does to this day.
I enjoy your writings and hope to see much more of it.
All the best
Frank Trzaska
Excellent piece on the wonderful electricians knife. I would like to update you on a few items in the military section of your piece.
The TL-29 is Tool, Lineman, Item 29 not the date. The first TL-29 designation was dated 5/1/19 as Issue A
The kit you refer to in the TE33 was first issued in canvas, then leather and later in canvas duck webbing. Initially the TL-29 was issued with the TL-13 pliers. The pliers had a wire stripping function added to the cutters behind the jaws and became the TL-13A edition.
Yes, they are still a standard item in many versions of different tool kits for the government. The reason they were issued in boxes was for uses by other services and in different size kits. An electrician on a ship in the Navy would not need the TE-33 belt kit.
I know that Klein Tools marketed two knives they called electricians knives as early as 1904. The two bladed version used the locking system of depressing the main blade to unlock the screwdriver blade. The Cattaraugus liner locking patent, 825,093 was issued in July 3, 1906 so it prevented any other company from using it. Of course if the government wanted knives built with the patent they could have them and not infringe on the patent. All others would have to wait until 1923 when the patent expired to use that device so all early electrician knives use the alternative locking system. I don’t know if that locking device was ever patented? The Klein Tools version of the knife was made by Empire Knife Co.
In 1929 the military tested a larger version on the TL-29 called the TL-116. If was the size we know today, prior to this the TL-29 was a much smaller knife. The Signal Corps knife was prone to breakage when being used as a screwdriver if a very tight screw was encountered. The torsional force applied would pop out the pins at the blade pivot end and the knife would spread apart. To fix this a larger pin and load bearing surface was required so the knife was enlarged. This knife in the testing (Made by Schrade) used the older locking system of the typical Signal Corps knife not the liner lock. It was not adopted, one of the reasons was when gripping the knife hard for a tight screw the user would unknowingly depress the main blade and unlock the screwdriver allowing it to fold on the operators fingers. A better locking system was required. The next year, 1930 the liner locking system was added and adopted as the new TL-29 Issue B. For some unknown reason they reverted to the old designation of TL-29 but without a revision number like an A1 or A2 as such. It remained and still does through all it’s revisions the TL-29.
All versions required a lock in the military specifications as was the bail a part of the specs for the military. I have found these knives with wood, bone and plastic handles all with TL-29 markings of some type. The requirement for the marked shield was dropped on 8/5/42 with the TL-29 being impressed into the wood directly. All the various specifications were rewritten into one dated 5/25/1945 falling under Army Signal Corps Specification 71-569, it was now standardized. During the changeover from military to government wide specifications it was redrawn on 5/5/1954 and standardized as the MIL-K-13419 (SigC). At that change among other things they required the impressed TL-29 should be filled with a permanent white filler and varnished on top. This helps to date post war models as being filled with some color, white or gold. The knife companies (mainly Albert Baer) tried to eliminate the TL-29 along with the Engineers 4 blade, the Navy and AAF flyers 3 blade, the Mountain Troops 5 blade, the Quartermaster Stockman 3 blade and every other type of knife in the military standards. He reasoned with the government they could up production making only one knife pattern. He told them they should standardize on one design, the all steel MIL-K818 that he was producing in the Kingston name at the time for the Marine Corps. At the monthly meeting of the Pocket Knife Industry Advisory Board meetings it was a topic of concern for every member. The Army performed two tests on the all metal knife but the Signal Corps shot it down for the simple lack of a locking screwdriver. Most of the other knives were eliminated at that point for the remainder of WWII but the TL-29 continued in production and still does to this day.
I enjoy your writings and hope to see much more of it.
All the best
Frank Trzaska
Codger_64
Moderator
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- Oct 8, 2004
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- 61,712
Frank!! This is the very information I was missing! Thanks a million! I went thru you site looking for info on the TL-29, but alas, it is either not there, or I just plain missed it. I did enjoy all of the other writings I read while searching, though I am not well versed in the bayonets, or military knives in general. Yes, Albert "put the fix in" in the QMG office. He was quite a man for working the angles, and earned both thanks and villification from his fellow cutlery owners. One incident in particular involved contracts for machetes, and even the folding machete. Remind me to tell you about that one!
Thanks again!
Codger
Thanks again!
Codger
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2005
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- 760
Thanks for the clarification Mr. Trzaska. I'm sure it's not much, but I was about to add my contribution to the tread, a 204 , 204s (without the shackle) and a 204s.
I must say these are some rugged kinves. The one in the middle, the 204s without the s , has become one of my favorite knives to carry.
Thanks Rick
I must say these are some rugged kinves. The one in the middle, the 204s without the s , has become one of my favorite knives to carry.
Thanks Rick
waynorth
Dealer / Materials Provider
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2005
- Messages
- 30,092
Hello Frank,
I enjoy reading your articles, and want to thank you for helping out here! You mentioned the Empire model of the subject knife, and I wonder if you saw the two Empires in post #3 above? A slimmer knife than the TL-29s, I wonder if that is the Klein model of which you speak? It has the Main blade actuated lock you mentioned. Do you have a picture of the older Klein?
Thanks ahead,
Charlie waynorth
I enjoy reading your articles, and want to thank you for helping out here! You mentioned the Empire model of the subject knife, and I wonder if you saw the two Empires in post #3 above? A slimmer knife than the TL-29s, I wonder if that is the Klein model of which you speak? It has the Main blade actuated lock you mentioned. Do you have a picture of the older Klein?
Thanks ahead,
Charlie waynorth
waynorth
Dealer / Materials Provider
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2005
- Messages
- 30,092
Codger, I am collecting info about Empire because not much has been written about them, so these are not for sale, but if I find another, I will alert you! I wish there was an Empire Forum, but I'm sure it would be tough to support. I don't know any experts who could lead such a thing!
Here's a reproduction of a very early Empire display, which I am going to show in Eugene in April 2007.
Here's a reproduction of a very early Empire display, which I am going to show in Eugene in April 2007.
Codger,
Your are most welcome. I am indeed lacking on the TL-29 on my site along with most patterns of pocket knives. I love them all but for some reason most of the documentation always goes to fixed blades. Not much interest in a pocket knife to those guys, they were just tools with no need to test much. If it worked fine, if it broke get another, no big deal to them at the time. Today we want to know more...
So tell me about machetes...
Waynorth,
Here is an example of the Empire early version military electrician knife. http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/Empire_SCUSA1.JPG
Yes, the two versions you show are the two also shown in the old Klein information. These are the earliest of the electrician patterns I have seen. They are pre TL-29 designation when it was just a Signal Corps knife or Electricians Knife in the military. Empire also made a two blade EZ opener pattern with SC USA in the shield. Much like shown in the display at the 4:00 o'clock position.
As for an Empire expert.... I would say you are the guy! Impressive collection.
All the best
Frank Trzaska
Your are most welcome. I am indeed lacking on the TL-29 on my site along with most patterns of pocket knives. I love them all but for some reason most of the documentation always goes to fixed blades. Not much interest in a pocket knife to those guys, they were just tools with no need to test much. If it worked fine, if it broke get another, no big deal to them at the time. Today we want to know more...
So tell me about machetes...
Waynorth,
Here is an example of the Empire early version military electrician knife. http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/Empire_SCUSA1.JPG
Yes, the two versions you show are the two also shown in the old Klein information. These are the earliest of the electrician patterns I have seen. They are pre TL-29 designation when it was just a Signal Corps knife or Electricians Knife in the military. Empire also made a two blade EZ opener pattern with SC USA in the shield. Much like shown in the display at the 4:00 o'clock position.
As for an Empire expert.... I would say you are the guy! Impressive collection.
All the best
Frank Trzaska
While we are at it here is a copy of a copy of the experimental TL-116 knife photo. This knife was made by Schrade for the Army test
on the larger sized electricians knives in 1929.
I left the photo large so you can see the blade markings.
http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/TL-116_kit.JPG
All the best
Frank Trzaska
on the larger sized electricians knives in 1929.
I left the photo large so you can see the blade markings.
http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/TL-116_kit.JPG
All the best
Frank Trzaska
