Emerson Explains 154 Steel

shqxk said:
Then it would be real interesting why you switche to CPM-S35VN on some model?

154CM is great steel but there are always some benefit to changing to CPM154... Due to better distribution of alloy element/carbide the PM154 going to has better response to heat treat, this higher toughess at similar HRC and slightly better corrosion resistance.

I know in real world use people wouls not be easily notice the difference about all of these... But by using the best version of 154 would shut the mouth of most hater when it come steel argument.
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exactly. there are better options for steel at the same hardness . why not use them? you charge a premium for knives with varying degrees of fit and finish and say they are hard use tools not shelf queens and pander to the "tough guy" group who eat this stuff up . This is classic marketing techniques to keep from having practice the concept of "constant Improvement"

Its like listening to an old guy at the dinner table saying "I don't need one of those new fangled flat screen tvs!! My black and white RCA (that's the size of a refridgerator and weights 150 pounds) from 1973 is just fine once it heats up for 20 minutes!!"
 
ponykid said:
exactly. there are better options for steel at the same hardness . why not use them? you charge a premium for knives with varying degrees of fit and finish and say they are hard use tools not shelf queens and pander to the "tough guy" group who eat this stuff up . This is classic marketing techniques to keep from having practice the concept of "constant Improvement"

Its like listening to an old guy at the dinner table saying "I don't need one of those new fangled flat screen tvs!! My black and white RCA (that's the size of a refridgerator and weights 150 pounds) from 1973 is just fine once it heats up for 20 minutes!!"
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:rolleyes:
 
I know the panties will be twisting and insults flying soon

it doesn't change the fact that its marketing (and good marketing as well ) games to divert from quality improvements to give customers more bang for their hard earned bucks. by admitting it you would have to admit to falling for the marketing and no one wants to admit to being played :)
 
ponykid said:
I know the panties will be twisting and insults flying soon

it doesn't change the fact that its marketing (and good marketing as well ) games to divert from quality improvements to give customers more bang for their hard earned bucks. by admitting it you would have to admit to falling for the marketing and no one wants to admit to being played :)
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No need to insult. This is the Emerson subforum, so you are choosing to make the impression you are making.
 
ponykid said:
...use the right tool for the job...
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Thats just it, whatever Emerson Im carrying seems to be the right tool for every job.

As for the horsepower angle. I work in the automotive industry and I spec high HP luxury vehicles regularily. The majority of people buying them are total goofs, and rarely will a single one use all that uber high HP for anything more than accidently speeding through a school zone cuz cops are everywhere, not to mention many of them come in with mechanical issues from not ever being warmed up properly among other problems due to operator error.

As for the SUV's, the hardest offroad use a luxury high HP SUV's will ever see is backing up over their neighbors flower bush after one too many rose's.

So if the HP analogy carries over to super steels, nuff said. You can have your super steels. Enjoy opening your packages from Amazon and cutting tags off clothing.

Ill take my 154cm and use it to pry a stuck casing from my rifle cuz I loaded it too hot...

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Edit to add: If price point is an issue there is always the secondary market where there are deals to be had, so there is really no downside.
 
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mt666tm said:
Thats just it, whatever Emerson Im carrying seems to be the right tool for every job.

As for the horsepower angle. I work in the automotive industry and I spec high HP luxury vehicles regularily. The majority of people buying them are total goofs, and rarely will a single one use all that uber high HP for anything more than accidently speeding through a school zone cuz cops are everywhere, not to mention many of them come in with mechanical issues from not ever being warmed up properly among other problems due to operator error.

As for the SUV's, the hardest offroad use a luxury high HP SUV's will ever see is backing up over their neighbors flower bush after one too many rose's.

So if the HP analogy carries over to super steels, nuff said. You can have your super steels. Enjoy opening your packages from Amazon and cutting tags off clothing.

Ill take my 154cm and use it to pry a stuck casing from my rifle cuz I loaded it too hot...

--
Edit to add: If price point is an issue there is always the secondary market where there are deals to be had, so there is really no downside.
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see that's what Im talking about. you just made my point thinking you've just destroyed my opinion by insulting people who seek the best performance they can get for their hard earned dollars.

My HP analogy is right on the money and not because some rich kid with an inheritance buys a Porche. Its insulting to the rest of the knife community when you denigrate people for expecting improvement and forward progress by calling them lame wannabee amazon package openers. I guess at my age my testosterone has dropped to the point where I don't consider using my 200 dollar knife to pry open a paint can because I have a brain and think to walk over to my tool box and grab a pry bar. and that probably means I am less of a man .

and warming a fuel injected car up properly? maybe in the dead of winter and its zero degrees and you live right next to the highway and you redline the vehicle from your driveway. Cars nowadays have computer controlled systems. you don't need to "warm" your vehicle up like great grand dads tractor or 1962 ford pickup. Oil viscosity is down to 0-20 in modern vehicles.

and its not that I cant afford an Emerson if I really want another one. I actually have a Persian had it for 10 years but don't carry it because it has stabbed me more than once as the detent sucks ass. cool as hell design though . also have a La Griffe and I love that little knife I carry it frequently. But it is over priced at $100 for what it is but its a specialty knife and I have a direct use for it and was willing to pay the price to obtain its unique features so in that sense it was worth the price. Having to go to the secondary market to justify the lack of improvement in lock systems,materials (like using a steel liner on one side and titanium on the other I know that's because tough guys don't need two titanium liners) or constant quality control is just as silly as falling for the tough guy spec war operator marketing.

I really like a lot of Emerson designs. I love the look of their custom models with the bolsters and micarta . But Im not falling for the marketing angle and the essay on why they still use 154cm is just that marketing .
 
ponykid said:
see that's what Im talking about. you just made my point thinking you've just destroyed my opinion by insulting people who seek the best performance they can get for their hard earned dollars.

My HP analogy is right on the money and not because some rich kid with an inheritance buys a Porche. Its insulting to the rest of the knife community when you denigrate people for expecting improvement and forward progress by calling them lame wannabee amazon package openers. I guess at my age my testosterone has dropped to the point where I don't consider using my 200 dollar knife to pry open a paint can because I have a brain and think to walk over to my tool box and grab a pry bar. and that probably means I am less of a man .

and warming a fuel injected car up properly? maybe in the dead of winter and its zero degrees and you live right next to the highway and you redline the vehicle from your driveway. Cars nowadays have computer controlled systems. you don't need to "warm" your vehicle up like great grand dads tractor or 1962 ford pickup. Oil viscosity is down to 0-20 in modern vehicles.

and its not that I cant afford an Emerson if I really want another one. I actually have a Persian had it for 10 years but don't carry it because it has stabbed me more than once as the detent sucks ass. cool as hell design though . also have a La Griffe and I love that little knife I carry it frequently. But it is over priced at $100 for what it is but its a specialty knife and I have a direct use for it and was willing to pay the price to obtain its unique features so in that sense it was worth the price. Having to go to the secondary market to justify the lack of improvement in lock systems,materials (like using a steel liner on one side and titanium on the other I know that's because tough guys don't need two titanium liners) or constant quality control is just as silly as falling for the tough guy spec war operator marketing.

I really like a lot of Emerson designs. I love the look of their custom models with the bolsters and micarta . But Im not falling for the marketing angle and the essay on why they still use 154cm is just that marketing .
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It's all marketing. From everyone. The fact everyone thinks all knives should be super steels is marketing. It's been marketing that has made everyone think that they need full titanium framelocks. With super steel. For $200. But let's disregard they are made in China. Or wherever.

Anyway, you can disagree with Ernest, hate his "tough guy spec war operator" marketing, disagree with his steel philosophy, deride the QC and lack of innovation. You can do all that. You can even come here and call shenanigans, as you see it. I just don't get the time invested - if you think the knives are bad, and the marketing is disingenuous, just move on and don't buy. It's very simple. I certainly don't try and get WE or Kizer or whoever to quit making monotone titanium slab handled flippers.

I certainly spend no time on forums of knives which I am not a fan of. Why would I?
 
No insult came from me... if you took it that way then I apologize, however it was not my intent. You can look at the argument from however you want to spin it.

I've got more tools than most guys, and I do have a tool for every job, but I just love using a knife that can do it all.

And of course you have to warm up a high performance engine. Fuel injected or not. It allows components to lubricate, heat up, properly seal, Etc. I'm not making this up. Our techs get them in all the time, $150k+ cars running like shit, burning oil, misfiring... all from improper operation, and cheap fuel, and not covered under warranty. You can imagine the shit show when customers don't want to pay the bill.

Anyways... we're talking about metal used a knife blade... I couldn't care less on the outcome of this topic. I'll buy the knives I like, you buy the knives you like. Maybe one day we meet and admire each others knives, or not, but at least we'll have something interesting to talk about.
 
I think it's great that this information is being put out there. I wish more knife makers would do so. For my type of "hard use" S90V and other high-wear steels are a better fit. I completely get where CPM 154 and similar steels fill a role, but it's not the right steel for me.

I've wasted too much money on makers who promise "hard use" knives and who don't quantify what they mean.
 
you guys are right. I have fallen for marketing myself and got caught up in the hype of the latest and greatest steels. then I realized sure a lot of them are great for specific reasons and those reasons may not fit into my use or needs. so I started to refine my decisions and not necessarily pay the premium for the latest greatest steel or turn my nose up at something like 440C or 154CM .

If that's the steel they chose then great. Like I said I have a cpl of their knives and carry one a lot. I just get a certain arrogant tone when I read some of their "essays" .

just quickly as its off topic. If extreme temps are a factor like bitter cold winters then yes I would warm up my vehicle for a cpl minutes and not just hit the road and stomp on it like I already mentioned . blaming warranty repairs on operators not warming the vehicle up on a new luxury vehicle? c'mon sounds like dealership trying to weasel out of warranty .
My 2017 BMW that cost me $90000 is smoking out the tailpipe. sorry Ma'am you didn't let it warm up for ten minutes we know you didn't. so its not covered under warranty . we can tell you used cheap gas from Cumberland farms also so sorry no coverage again!!
 
I'm not, or don't consider myself, a steel snob but I do ask and want to know why one would use 154CM instead of CPM-154 the only thing I can think of is cost as based on my understanding the PM is just a better method that gives a more reliable product. I would just speculate that this method is more costly and thus it would be more expensive than the non-PM variant.
 
I have also heard/read that Ernest/EKI continues to use that steel, bought from the same people that he always has bought from, out of loyalty. But that could be mythologizing/marketing as well. But I would not be surprised if that was true.
 
Or it could be that knife knuts are known to imagine spectacular benefits from specs that aren't truly apparent or significant in the real world.

This is simply a beveled chunk of metal on a hinge. Don't forget that...

Sometimes we all need to step back and breathe a bit.
 
Lets be honest, many of the kids crying for the most up to the minute super steel probably carry a couple fancy knives, one or both never getting used, and they pay someone to sharpen for them or worry about
if the "factory edge" is in tact when they are buying and selling in the marketplace. 154 works fine, s30v works fine and I have a few more "higher end" steels in a couple knives and I don't really
notice much of a difference for regular stuff, no reason to pretend that I do and no reason to come in a man's forum and trash talk. Can't please everybody and we are lucky you have about 100 knife companies
to choose from. By all means, buy from the one that pleases you and bless their forum with your uplifting presence.
 
If saying that out of hundreds of thousands of knives sold only a few have broken isn’t a solid endorsement for the steel, then, Idk what is. I’ve heard similar (not quite as great) claims for fixed blades from 440c—as long as it’s cry-quenched, and hardened to about 58, it won’t break. I don’t know why so few knifemakers use the cpm version—the only one that I know of is Spyderco, and they don’t use much—but it can’t just be cost, as the difference isn’t that much per knife.
 
I love Emerson knives and designs, but the ZT0620 with M390 is my most often carried and used knife. Unless I have a chance at a custom, I would have a really difficult time going back to 154CM.
 
I recently placed an order for an Emerson for the first time in maybe 10 years or so. I ordered the Tiger and I'm very much looking forward to carrying it (still waiting for it in the mail). That said, it does appear like no one is really addressing the concern about switching to CPM154 from 154CM. On the face of it, it seems like there's only upside other than that it would cost more for Emerson. It would also be difficult to reason that switching to CPM154 would cause Emerson knives to increase in price since we all know that the materials currently used don't justify the price ranges the knives sell at, at least if the rest of the modern knife market is any indication. Even if you subscribe the the idea that 154CM possesses the right qualities for the intended purposes of the knife and modern "super steels" don't, it seems like none of that would be lost in CPM154. And if they couldn't justify asking customers to pay more for CPM154, that would mean a smaller profit margin.

I like Emerson knives because of their designs. And they certainly seem like they're built well enough to accomplish the sort of tasks they're designed for. Because of that, I'll continue to to be open to buying more of their knives in the foreseeable future. But that's despite the cost-to-materials ratio that they tend to get a bad wrap for in the various knife forums. It's also despite the one design choice that I really don't like; the side the chisel grinds are on.
 
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