espada y daga ?

K

Knovice

Joined
Aug 4, 2000
Messages
119
i was watching a tape the other day, in which the narrator mentioned that full-contact "espada y daga" w/ sticks distorts espada y daga, because the "daga" is just a short stick, making it the less dangerous weapon, while a true daga would be the more dangerous weapon . . .

has anybody here come up with a solution to this problem?

instead of using a short stick, or wooden/plastic/aluminum trainer, would it be feasible to use a pocket stun-gun as the daga, or would it be too fragile ?

or am i just nuts ?
 
I am not quite sure of your comment or question. The fact is, it really doesn't matter what type of tool you implement as the "daga" as long as you train with it as though it were a "daga". In other words, if you choose to use a short stick just be sure to train with it as if it were live, using slashes and stabs. If you prefer to use the short stick like a "stick" it would be more appropriate to call it "doble baston" than "espada y daga".

As for the stun gun, I wouldn't recommend that it be used like a "daga". A stun gun hs no sharp edges and a hard thrust may damage the gun and make it useless as a "stun" gun.

------------------

STEVE
 
First of all, it's all in the mind. In otherwords, you need to keep in mind that the short stick represents a knife and treat it accordingly. Using a training knife for sparring increases the level of awareness that it's a knife, but also increases the levels of pain and risk. Resin trainers (like "Sharkee's") increase these levels to a lessor degree than aluminum trainers (like EDGES2).

A point contention though, in true "Espada y Daga" the long stick represents a sword ("espada"=sword) so in Espada y Daga the "more dangerous" weapon (IMHO) would be the espada/sword/long-stick and the daga would be the subordinate/support weapon. The daga would be the "more dangerous" weapon, if one were actually practicing what would be more appropriately called "Baston y Daga" or "Garrote y Daga" (both "baston" & "garrote" refering to a stick). All IMHO.

Any way you cut it though (pardon the pun) correct practice, including the correct use of sparring is dependent upon maintaining the proper perspective on what you're doing. Again that's MHO, FWIW

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton



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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 10-27-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 10-27-2000).]
 
to Dave Fulton;

yes, that is a good point re: true espada y daga, as opposed to baston y daga; that occurred to me after szorn's post got my synapses going . . .

what is the history of espada y daga & baston y daga in the FMAs? from reading various posts on this forum, i gather there is some controversy re: the importance of e. y d. / b. y d.;

does the long & short combination reflect a european influence ?
 
The term certainly does apply to the culture it is forever linked to, but remember too that many practitioners called their systems what they were designed to counter against. They had to learn how to fight to win on their terms, not to emulate what the Spaniards were doing.
Also, this mainly pertains to Tagal or Spanish occupied lowland Northern tribes where some Spanish terms are used for their combat systems. The Spanish made a point not to pass their written language down to the Mindanaoan tribes as they had a fear of the north south and midland tribes uniting.Only later when they reattempted to establish a religious stronghold and failed did they attempt to pacify with the use of religion/laguage first.

Factor in that the Spanish were but one culture who invaded during the four hundred year span. You have Dutch, German, Chinese and other Malays; plus local tribe versus tribe battles happening as well. So the long and short techniques have all their flavor as well.

Best way to interpret Philippine history is not to categorize the whole archipelago as one nation like many mistakenly do.Tagalog, the present (and still contested in some circles) national language is comparatively new as it represented only one major tribe on the islands. They just happen to be ones who the guns first...heh.So Spanish was used by non Tagals as well to shorten the language gap between the tribes.

hope this was of help.
Gumagalang,
--Rafael--
 
thanks, Sun Helmet; but could you (or anybody) be a little more specific?

[This message has been edited by Knovice (edited 10-28-2000).]
 
Originally posted by Knovice:
to Dave Fulton;

what is the history of espada y daga & baston y daga in the FMAs? from reading various posts on this forum, i gather there is some controversy re: the importance of e. y d. / b. y d.;

does the long & short combination reflect a european influence ?
Click to expand...

I'm not an expert on the history/culture of the Philippines or the FMA, but here's MHO from what I've observed. Anytime a culture has regular contact with another culture, there's influence in both directions to varying degrees.

I don't think the debate is about the "importance" of EyD, but whether it was derived (in whole or in part) from the Spanish. The heart of the debate is how it became a part of the FMA and that, I think, is something that has been lost in the mists of time.

The FMA are part of the Filipino cultural, but they are also fighting arts and so to SOME DEGREE I think it's less important to know where EyD came from than how to apply it effectively ... something that I think I may NEVER know.
rolleyes.gif


It was either Floro Villabrille or Tatang Illustrisimo that was asked about the name of his art and responded (paraphrased) "It's not important what you call your art so long as your opponent is dead."

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton



------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
 
i understand your point, but i'm still curious;

any info on the historical roots of espada y daga & baston y daga?
 
Knovice,

Absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to know and I'm not saying that you should stop looking for the answer, but this is one of those subjects that has no clear cut answer. That's the problem with oral history.

Good luck in finding your answers.

Dave Fulton



------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
 
E&D or long short existed in the Pnil. before the arrival of the spanish.

WH Scott makes reference to the use of long and short weapons in Bicolin his book Barangay.

Vince

 
Knovice,

The best way to truly grasp how the archipelago of the Philippines is formed and structured is to visit or hang out with many Filipinos. You will see they all have different opinions and come from many tribes. The Philippines was not a united country when the Chinese, Malays, Indians and Muslims arrived hundreds of years before the Spanish. Radio carbon dating in the Tabon caves also prove that metallurgy was around a good thousand years before the Spanish. In a climate where the blade is used to build and adapt to the environment, it is safe to say that weapons of long and short existed prior to Spain.

However, the islands come with hundreds of tribes and dialects, many fought one another- many never even heard of the other, so to place a definition to suit Western ideas of origin or a united origin of the long and short edged weapons would be futile and second guessing at best.

Be careful of Western swordsmen trying to define it for you - for they know even less about the Philippines. They know greatly about European weaponry but the only similarities would be that the Philippine archipelago was more like Europe in it's division and differing POVs or like the Middle East with it's diversity... the history of the islands should not and never should be considered as one. To come from that point of view would only lead to more frustrations and false assumptions.

The torching of the libraries and what ever texts there was of Filipino culture is also a problem to now make assumptions of the islands- it is a catch 22.

Gumagalang,
--Rafael--
 
why does espada y daga exist at all?

i know some of the Filipino cultures had shields, so why fight sword-and-knife? was it an urban weapon setup, as it was in europe? (generally speaking)

if swords and knives were available, why have baston y daga?

a curious guy;
Knovice
 
Jim, E y D is interesting because it's not so clear in it's application. Training wise, it demands you know your ranges, be real clear when and how you block with either a short or long weapon, learn how not to tie yourself up, be ambidexterous, and learn to set up your killshots. Going with a standard curriculum, a person with 2 sticks can "fake" it with E y D and the double sword. Take any weapons fight and change 1 factor and the fight can change. Like the bokken, sticks are training device that "became" a weapon.

PI (Philippine Islands) is a tropical forest area and everybody needed at least a) A chopping knife and b) A spear for fishing. Like Rafe said, you can't judge PI history as this one universal thing. 7000 islands separated by water, there's not going to be the same progression of technology.

Let's be honest, lots of folks think it's useless especially sport folks. It's been like this for last 10 years or more. It's what you make of it, what you do with E y D/paired weapons that matters, just like a kurtka/gi/kimono.

Shields are interesting, I've seen very few mainly from the Igorot and some Muslim tribes. The latter being more like bucklers, the former is heavier and specialized. Top rungs do a takedown and bottom rung pins the head to the ground so you can open his mind.



[This message has been edited by Smoke (edited 11-02-2000).]
 
Originally posted by Knovice:
why does espada y daga exist at all?

i know some of the Filipino cultures had shields, so why fight sword-and-knife? was it an urban weapon setup, as it was in europe? (generally speaking)

if swords and knives were available, why have baston y daga?

a curious guy;
Knovice
Click to expand...

Knovice,

Keep in mind that FMA is very much a "concepts" based system with concepts from one weapon system being adaptable (within certain parameters of course) to other weapons systems. For example, the way EyD integrates your subordinate hand (the one with the daga) can be adapted to the live/empty hand in Solo Baston. A knife thrust from EyD can be a tap/trap with the live hand or a punch given the correct circumstances. When one fights solo baston it's easy to forget about the "live hand" but putting a weapon in it seems to make it more animated. That's one reason why EyD is and important part of FMA.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton



------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
 
no, i havent met nobody who actually teaches fighting with espada y daga. most just teach combinations and reflex drills but at a slow pace, like you feed me i block, you feed again, i block with the knife and trap, i disarm then kill, something like that.

i consider it teaching somebody to fight with a weapons when you teach them the slow way, and counters, then maybe counter to the counter, then single step sparring, then regular sparring (first light contact, then full contact). anything else is just concept/stick twirling/drills.

now there are people who spar with the espada y daga, but i did not meet them yet.
 
Knovice,
I was taught Espada Y Daga as a combative method. We trained it that way and sparred with it that way. We worked sword and dagger, stick and dagger, long stick and short stick, tobak toyak (nunchaku) and dagger, and pretty much any mismatched weapons pair. In law enforecment I used the same principles to work with LEO's who were interested and we worked baton and stun gun and lately, baton and O.C. spray.
 
thanks for the replies, y'all. each presents an interesting perspective.

i'm still curious re: whether espada y daga // baston y daga existed historically within fma, since it did in wma . . .
 
Knovice,

Historically,a sword and a dagger was also in Muslim areas, the Moors had a sword and dagger- when they conquered Spain, many were kept as slaves- the cultures intermixed many times. It is perfectlly logical that a smith would create a short weapon and a long weapon and the advantages of both is in the ranges. Also, the weapons were also tools to keep living. I know you show a sword to someone and you also show them a knife- they usually want to learn both. It is human nature to have a secondary weapon for back up or close quarter situations.It is human nature which we all share no matter what culture. If one had stick, and a knife was handy why not carry it? The Tabon Caves have edged metal weapons carbon dated centuries prior to even the Muslims arrival.
The Igorote tribes have been recorded by the Spanish to have spears, head axes, arrows and swords. The Spanish never got beyond the lowlands and concentrated their invasion on the Tagals and other tribes who were willing to side with them against the Moros (who threatened the other Filipino tribes). The Igorotes resisted but had edged weapons- they were head hunters to begin with so they were using weapons that cut and severed body parts.
You also have to look beyond the typical historical and geological framework many use to try and establish a western influence in the origin of Philippine weaponry. Indonesia and other Malay cultures thrived and have records that were not burned by Spanish and the weapons have the aesthetic similarites to Filipino weaponry- their cultural brothers.

best,
--Rafael--
 
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