European Saddle Stitch vs. Machine stitch?

[Diomedes Industries]

I had a discussion with Paul Long a while back that has stuck in my head for some time, concerning the hand stitch and the machine stitch. His argument was, if I remember correctly, that the machine stitch, to the average consumer, was just as good, if not better than the hand stitch. Most people could not tell the difference and didn't value a hand stitched piece.

I said at the time that I understood his points and I wanted to take my hand stitch as far as it could go before judging it, fully.

At the time I was doing a straight saddle stitch. I started making smaller and thinner items and switched over to using stitching chisels and a European saddle stitch (I am calling it this - what I mean is a sort of zig zag stitch made with the awl places at roughly a 30 degree angle and the stitch going back and forth from one awl hole to another. I still see this stitch done a lot of items from the UK and this is why I gave it this name. In fact, Al Stohlman calls for this same stitch in his work "The Art of Hand Sewing".) I deeply enjoy this look and sought to bring this stitch as far as I could.

I am sure I have much more to learn, but when I completed the sheath seen below (for a small Sloyd knife) I thought I had pretty much taken this stitch to the extent that I am able.

So.... I am left wondering. Is Paul's argument still valid. Does the end consumer really know or care that my pieces are hand stitched in a traditional fashion? Are they willing to pay for my time (which is perhaps 10 times longer than it takes Paul to make the same stitch on his Cobra 4)?

I doubt it. But I wanted to open it up for discussion here.

What do you think? Does the average consumer care or are they willing to pay for a hand stitched sheath vs. a machine stitched sheath when there is such a time difference between the two?

Jason

 

[sheathmaker]

Jason, there is no argument….that sheath stitching is absolutely beautiful. The back side probably looks as uniform as a machine stitch on average.

Now to the issue at hand…time and the level of sophistication of the consumer to appreciate the hand stitch or even notice it on their own.

First: time, judging the size of that sheath the stitching on the Cobra would take 15 to 30 seconds. Your hand stitch, I have no idea, but I imagine considerably longer. The quality of the Cobra stitch seems to satisfy my consumers based on their overall feed back regarding the quality and their overall satisfaction. The method of stitching has never even entered into a conversation before or after the fact that I recall, so I have come to think of it as a non issue.

Second: this segues nicely into consumer attitude and/or knowledge. It could be concluded that the lack of conversation one way or the other is indicative that they either don't know or don't care or both. If I was doing just one or two sheaths a week I'd probably have continued hand stitching, but at a peak of 600+ sheaths a year I had to move to machines. Thank God, I'm down to about half or less of that production now.

I still hold to the position that most consumers don't know or care about how it got stitched, they just care that it DID get stitched, and that it looks very nice.

So there you have it, my friend. I have no axe to grind either for or against. I chose my method based on my personal need for speed and quality along with that speed. Your mileage may vary.

Paul

(if you do come over to the dark side, be sure to consider Cobra)

 

[Patrice Lemée]

If I was doing just one or two sheaths a week I'd probably have continued hand stitching...

Thanks Paul, that really helps me in my decision not to buy a sewing machine.

Good looking stitching Jason, maybe just a little more work to be done to get the curved portion of the backside more uniform. But I know how hard that is, just nitpicking.

 

[Diomedes Industries]

Paul,

I hope that this did not come across as an argument, per se'. I posted this and went on this adventure because I wanted to see where it would take me and test your words. I know you have never said anything disparaging on any method for making sheaths. It is one of the reasons I trust your opinions. You simply state your way, and know that others have other ways.

I think you are right - and I think when I do this more full time (right now I have a full time career) I know I will need a machine. (By the way - I saved a thread of yours a LONG time ago on what machines you are using and there is no reason for me not to get exactly those).

I know when I show people my work - invariably they say "Is this done by a machine?". I always think I will impress them by saying it is done by hand, but more often than not, they look incredulous. It is as if they can barely believe it - and frankly if it was done by a machine - they wouldn't care in the least.

Patrice. I find the rear side always tough. I think I had two chisel strikes wander a little from front to back. You can see the zig zag a little. However, when making a radius with a diamond stitch - the zig zag will always be a little more pronounced. I am wondering if I shouldn't do a round hole in this area to even it out.

Oh well - I have a few more years (the leather gods willing) to work on it.

Jason

 

[Diomedes Industries]

Paul - let's try this. Can you please post a front and a back shot of one of your more simpler sheaths and I will try and replicate that with hand stitching with some of my pictures.? I am no master, that is certain, but I think that it would be worthwhile to truly see the similarities and differences.

Again, this is not penis measuring by any means. Or stating that one is better than the other. Simply a comparison. I know your work and reputation stand for themselves and I have no interest in getting into a silly match with you. I just want to learn and be a better artisan.

If you have the time to post the pics - that would be great. Thanks so much for all of your advice over the years.

Jason

 

[Horsewright]

Jason that whole sheath rocks. Stitching is great! Very refined and elegant look. I have miles and miles of hand stitching under my belt (pardon the pun). I have to agree with Paul there comes a point where the idea of hand stitching becomes secondary to production. I can say this with with some emphasis as I have the ludicrous hand stitching t shirt. I once hand stitched a pair of shotgun chaps.

Not this pair but this pic gives ya an idea of how much stitching is involved in a pair of shotgun chaps. Yeah I did, I sewed a pair by hand one time. I'm crazy nuts I know.

But at the time it was a hobby, I wasn't trying to make money at it. Good thing cause the amount of stitching involved I was probably working for $0.15 an hour. I have made probably 250 pairs of these type of leggings and only hand sewn one and that ain't happening again.

I've been at this now professionally for a long time. I have talked to thousands and thousands of customers both pre purchase and post delivery. Stitching has never entered the conversation. I have had two ask me what kind of machine I was using to stitch leather but both of those guys were saddlemakers so more of a professional curiosity than anything else. I have never had anyone ask me if I hand stitch or machine stitch. Both of those guys assumed I machine stitched.

While I work in a niche market, it is a crowded niche market. A simple google search for Charmitas or Chinks for sale will show that. I have to keep my prices in line with the competition or pretty soon I'm eating mac and cheese for dinner, seven times a week. Custom knives and sheaths, even a more crowded market. I could not hand sew (and I was pretty darn quick and had a great stitching horse), my products and remain where I could sell for a profit and be competative.

I understand what you are saying about the British/European tradition, I lived in Britain for 3.5 years. However, I think it is an apples/oranges comparison. Britain has a long tradition of bespoke goods that we simply don't have. They also have a tradition of paying for these bespoke goods that we don't have. $7,000 for a pair of shoes, $5,000 for an attache case, Purdey shotguns??? You have to make an appointment to be fitted at their London store to order one, base price is not mentioned on the website. Almost peerless craftsmanship but at a price that is not really viable here.

I think good work can be done by either method of sewing. And caveman crude work can be done either way too.

 

[sheathmaker]

Jason, no argument, no controversy, and I hope my post was not taken in that way.

Per your request and front and back view of the same sheath, three different examples at random. (Actually four if you count the little black folder sheath) I would estimate the average stitching time on each would have been that 15 to 20 seconds I mentioned earlier. 30 seconds at the most.

Paul

Edit to add: Some folks have mentioned the slight pucker at each of the machine stitches on the back which is a big non issue for me, but for those who do mind it, it can be alleviated to a great degree with a smooth polished face hammer, smooth granite surface, very little moisture and burnishing action, and tapping, Just be careful not to screw up the hard work on the front of the sheath in the process. As I said , I don't do it as it's not an issue for me.

 

[Diomedes Industries]

...and then I asked Paul Long to send me a "Basic Sheath". Like asking a Hurricane for a "Little Water". Sheesh. These are awesome Paul.

Anyway - here is another shot of my latest - with European Saddle Stitch done by hand:

I agree on the "Puckering" Paul, but I think you have deeply minimized it with your machine being set up so well in terms of tension and the like. I am excited to learn how to get rid of it by your example.

If we ignore the front - because frankly I can't see a difference that is appreciable - and focus on the back. The back of my stitch, when I get it right, looks exactly like the front. This means little to nothing in the long run, however, because no one EVER said to me "Make sure the back of the item looks like the front!". They want it to look clean - but your is anything but not clean, Paul.

I have to tell you, what Dave said made the most sense to me. Yes, the European market is willing to pay a lot more for hand stitching - but we are NOT in a European market. It is the tidbit of argument I needed to make it make sense to me.

I have been saving my pennies, and have enough for a flatbed and cylinder machine. When the new house gets finished I will have a leather room dedicated to it and I plan on buying both machines. Then saving my money for a power skiver. I am excited.

I am also glad I took the route I did. It forced me to get my hand stitching decent and understand what makes a good and even stitch. I am not there yet - and may never be - but I know I know more now than I did three years ago.

Jason

 

[sheathmaker]

Jason, in my previous post where I said "some folks have mentioned the slight pucker etc." I was referring to other sheath makers or leather workers. Never heard it from a customer.

The main reason for the machine is the increased production while maintaining the quality, that and the fact that a flat bed can just do really fine stitching better than by hand because of the sizes of the awls. 10spi and the awl holes start to run together or tear.

That last sheath stitching looks really good………………both sides. Also in your previous post you mention a power skiver…..did you perhaps mean a power splitter? I have used a power skiver in the saddle shop and they do not skive to zero most of the time and they are not even nearly as precise as skiving by hand. Fine for saddle parts etc but in my opinion not for my sheath work. The power splitter on the other hand gets used daily and has turned sorry 7/8 belly leather into beautiful useable 2/3 lining material instead of trash.

Paul

 

[Horsewright]

Definitly look at the Cobras for sure Jason. The stitching on the backside is so clean on Nichole's Cobra 18 that she has purse customers unbuckling the straps and reversing them. She makes the straps out of veg tan and lines them with the same colored leather as the purse body. Customers have started using em the other way around for a different look. It was never intended that way but the stitching is that clean that that is what some of her customers are doing.

 

[Diomedes Industries]

Paul,

I meant power splitter - yes sir. Sorry. Started with an "S".

I agree - I can't really see it. I will be most certainly calling you and picking your brain to set up my machines as I get them. Again, I thank you for all your help.

Dave,

Agreed totally - I am looking forward to it.

Jason

 

[mt_hangglider]

I started doing leather work a little less than a year ago and during the vast majority of that time hand stitched everything. Less than a month ago, took the plunge and bought a Cobra Class 4 sewing machine. I understand the appreciation for good hand stitching and got fairly decent at it during that time period. However, I just was commenting to my father yesterday about this very topic. My exact words were "You know what? Sewing went from being my least favorite thing to do, to my favorite thing to do." The sewing machine makes beautiful, consistent stitches (once adjusted properly) in a fraction of the time without any finger or wrist pain. Win, win as far as I'm concerned. I will never hand stitch again unless necessary. That's just my personal experience with it. If a person enjoys hand stitching, by all means stick with it. It's a good thing to know how to do well either way.

 

[Diomedes Industries]

I am sick sick man - and actually enjoy hand stitching. We will see how I feel after a machine!

Jason

 

[Skystorm]

From my own experience, 15k+ sheaths, I can tell you that people I deal with certainly do appreciate them being hand stitched. People can tell the difference between them when they are next to each other. I also take the time to educate them if/when needed. Most people I build for already have a stock sheath, they just want something better than the usual Barkie paper thin leather with a couple eyelets jammed at each end so the stitching doesn't come unraveled.

I run on a semi production basis and use every minute of the day I can to my advantage so I sure would not waste time doing it by hand if I thought a machine would be better and faster. For me it's not, I don't have to waste time re threading a machine for every color change, I have 19 colors, by the time I did that and got a bobbin set up and ran a test piece through I would already be done doing it by hand. Again, I said MY needs. You have to figure out what your needs are then get the equipment to fit. If I was doing all the inlays/overlays like Paul I would get a couple flatbeds for it and drop down to black, brown, or white thread only.

You can get pretty fast doing it by hand if you have things set up right, A pouch style sheath such as yours you can do in just a couple minutes. The cost to time ratio is probably your biggest barrier. Get yourself a Tippmann and strip it of all the useless stuff hanging off of it and you have the perfect hole puncher in a fraction of the time it takes to punch them by hand. Once over the learning curve you can punch the holes in that sheath in ten seconds, without errors and no wandering stitch backside.

That being said, all I build are sheaths and holsters. If I was doing wallets, purses, or other thin work, then I would get a flatbed, mostly because thinner thread is available and easier to work with on a machine.

When you get that Cobra splitter, your whole world will change. I don't even know how I survived the first couple years without my pair. However, they are extremely frustrating at times to keep properly tweaked, lubed, and sharpened.

 

[sheathmaker]

"Good eye Paul, I have 2 of the Boss stitchers, They have to be overhauled from time to time and I can't be without one. The other machines in the background are Weaver's Little Wonders, snap, rivet and eyelet setters. I have 2 splitters for different weights, those machines are finicky and mine at least do not like the constant adjustment between weights so I ordered a second one to save time and frustration on my part. I have a class 4 and 17 for holsters that I couldn't fit in the pic off to the right, I think what you see back there is the dust collector next to the sanding bench with all the kydex stuff. I tried to set everything to work from back of the shop to shipping and out the door in the front.

That place is pretty much 5 years of constantly working and reinvesting back into it. When I started I could maybe do 10-12 sheaths per week if I hustled, Now I can do 75-90 depending on how old I am feeling that week.
I will have to pick all of this stuff up when we move next month but I will have twice the space when I land on the west coast again and can maybe get all this kydex gear I've been sitting on for the last couple years up and going finally."

The above quote was taken from a thread dated 9/4/15 post #14 and the photo was from the same thread post #9.

Sky, I'm a little confused. 2 Tippman Boss, a Cobra 4 and a Cobra 17, 15K sheaths, and you still hand stitch everything except holsters?

Paul

 

[leatherman]

Just about to head out to teach some art But I wanted to put some thoughts to screen before I go and forget it all. I will add more content as I get this thought out better.

First when your considering buying a machine think very deeply about your investment, or lack there of. These machines cost a LOT of money and making that back might be quite the task. In truth it could cost you more money than it makes at first, the learning curve is an expensive proposition, and some times a long term thing.

Next is your numbers. Do they justify the cost versus the time saved? You might be surprised.

Do your customers actually know the difference, again you might be surprised. I make sheaths for the other end of the spectrum than Paul. My work gets used, and in a lot of cases used HARD. I've restitched machine stitched sheaths, quite a few, most were unraveled by scuffing. Most started from the back of the sheath where on a machine you cannot groove so the stitches stand proud of the leather. One nice thing about machine stitched sheaths is they are a breeze to undo, one snip and start pulling, less than a minute later its done. One thing when I offered both, the overwhelming demand was hand stitched.

Time for me to take off for class, I will add to this tonight if all goes well. But I want to say this first, both methods have their place and fans. Just like materials, they have their uses and weakness's.

 

[Patrice Lemée]

The sewing machine makes beautiful, consistent stitches (once adjusted properly) in a fraction of the time without any finger or wrist pain.

Well now I am on the fence again.
Got some thumb/wrist problems and even if it is for making a couple dozen sheath a year, that might be worth it. Especially since I would like to be able to explore sheath design and that means trial and error with a lot more sewing.

If I did not need a TIG welder and Palmgraver from Steve Lyndsay, the decision would be easier. sigh.

Appreciate the discussion guys, keep going. :thumbup:

 

[mt_hangglider]

Well now I am on the fence again.
Got some thumb/wrist problems and even if it is for making a couple dozen sheath a year, that might be worth it. Especially since I would like to be able to explore sheath design and that means trial and error with a lot more sewing.

If I did not need a TIG welder and Palmgraver from Steve Lyndsay, the decision would be easier. sigh.

Appreciate the discussion guys, keep going. :thumbup:

They definitely are a serious investment. Like some other folks have said, it just has to be something an individual weighs for their own needs and go with what works best for them. I should mention it would be different too for the hobbyist such as myself vs. someone who is making a living with it. I have a very high paced day job and have thus far refused to take any orders from people since I don't want to just work all the time. Seems like that would take the enjoyment out of it pretty quickly. A machine is something I held off on since I'm not recouping any investment except in saved time, physical strain and personal enjoyment. Ended up being well worth it and wish I'd done it many month sooner. Might not be the right call for others. I will say it has opened up doors I would have never even attempted previously... the most recent and notable example is this belt. What a nightmare that would be to do by hand...

 

[Diomedes Industries]

hangglider,

Stop being a sissy and GET SEWING!

Patrice:

Please keep me up to speed. We seem like we are on this venture together in a way. We can maybe help each other.


This discussion, gentlemen, is amazing, and I deeply appreciate all of your advice. It helps me to cut off dozens of years of experience (in the case of Paul and Dwayne - I think it is hundreds of years. ) when I can talk to some of you masters about what I should do next.

The reality is that this is a secondary business for me.... right now. But I have earned enough to pay for a couple of machines sewing by hand. Further, I know these machines do not loose value as much as other machines in other businesses do. It might be that I have both for a time - and go to one primarily.

We will see.

Again - talking to you gents, for me, is frankly priceless.

Jason

 

[Skystorm]

Sorry for the confusion, I tend to forget to reiterate that what I personally do here is the sheaths, two of the holster models, the web work, inventory and maintenance. For a variety of reasons, I have other brands that we run under besides the Patriot banner and other people that work here doing them. I have found it easier that each person specializes in a few things rather than trying to teach each one of them everything. The other guys here do the other holsters, belts, kydex, SCA, and everything else we do and I just oversee their side of things and apply a foot to whichever rear currently is currently in need. 15k isn't that big of a number with the proper setup, averages out to 7-8 a day and I have always worked 7 days a week and have had help for awhile.
Had I had all of my equipment at the outset, and the brains to know what I needed and more importantly, what I didn't , I could easily have tripled that. I started in a spare bedroom, moved to the garage then a shop and now need a bigger shop. Maybe I will get smarter and get much bigger than I need this time. I didn't expect the holster and kydex side of things to overshadow everything else that fast so I need some people, space, and equipment.

The Tippmann are there for punching holes, you cannot run waxed thread through them and Ritza thread is all I use on sheaths. Apparently some people have a hard time believing I would buy a stitcher and not stitch with it, that's fine, I don't worry about what people think. I will take a saddle stitch over a running machine any day, it's a better stitch, plain and simple.
The Cobra is for belts, not a snowballs chance in hades we would ever hand stitch belts or be able to make any money off of them. Decorative stitched holsters they can do on the machine or by hand depending on what is needed but most of the holsters are hand stitched as well. The flatbed is for certain other projects that we do, some of the guys like doing SCA stuff and I have a woman that comes in and rents it once or twice a week for her ebay side gig, only machine that has actively paid for itself in this place without me using it. I need more machines like that one.

"Good eye Paul, I have 2 of the Boss stitchers, They have to be overhauled from time to time and I can't be without one. The other machines in the background are Weaver's Little Wonders, snap, rivet and eyelet setters. I have 2 splitters for different weights, those machines are finicky and mine at least do not like the constant adjustment between weights so I ordered a second one to save time and frustration on my part. I have a class 4 and 17 for holsters that I couldn't fit in the pic off to the right, I think what you see back there is the dust collector next to the sanding bench with all the kydex stuff. I tried to set everything to work from back of the shop to shipping and out the door in the front.

That place is pretty much 5 years of constantly working and reinvesting back into it. When I started I could maybe do 10-12 sheaths per week if I hustled, Now I can do 75-90 depending on how old I am feeling that week.
I will have to pick all of this stuff up when we move next month but I will have twice the space when I land on the west coast again and can maybe get all this kydex gear I've been sitting on for the last couple years up and going finally."

The above quote was taken from a thread dated 9/4/15 post #14 and the photo was from the same thread post #9.

Sky, I'm a little confused. 2 Tippman Boss, a Cobra 4 and a Cobra 17, 15K sheaths, and you still hand stitch everything except holsters?

Paul