Evenheat setpro question

Chris Leahy

Chris Leahy

Joined
Jul 9, 2019
Messages
55
hi guys,

Previously I’ve done my normalizing cycles one at a time.

Into my KF-18 to temperature X, remove after and cool to room temp. Reset kiln for new temp and repeat till done.

Thing is, it’s easily programmable BUT I can’t find any info at all about what happens between programmed segments.

What temp does it drop to? How quickly does the temp drop? How long does it wait?

Read the whole manual cover to cover. It’s not 8n there. Googled it and read dozens of articles and posts. Nothing.

I kinda think I need to know those answers to determine if I can actually program the whole process or just keep doing it the way I’ve been.

Anyone?
 
In my experience you can't program drops in temperature on a KF-18 very well ( I have one). I always get an over-temperature failure code. It can take hours to cool down just a little. You would have to pull the blade out, leave the door open for about 30 minutes, restart the program and skip to the next step, let the oven come to that temp, put the blade back in, etc.

The best way to do it is have three ovens set at 165o, 1500, 1nand 1350 :D;) I say that as a joke, but I have three ovens. I don't do normalizing that way, but you could.
On tricky steels, I have done the first step in the oven and then do all subsequent steps in the forge. Most times, I use the forge for all steps.

If you wanted to do it all in the oven, about the only way to do dropping steps is program a very slow rate between stages by cooling at 50° per hour. That will work, but it will make a normalization set of cycles an overnight process. It will also decarb the crap out of the blade. I guess a foil packet would protect the blade, but you will still use a lot of electricity.

Some of the others may have a method they use.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
In my experience you can't program drops in temperature on a KF-18 very well ( I have one). I always get an over-temperature failure code. It can take hours to cool down just a little. You would have to pull the blade out, leave the door open for about 30 minutes, restart the program and skip to the next step, let the oven come to that temp, put the blade back in, etc.

The best way to do it is have three ovens set at 165o, 1500, 1nand 1350 :D;) I say that as a joke, but I have three ovens. I don't do normalizing that way, but you could.
On tricky steels, I have done the first step in the oven and then do all subsequent steps in the forge. Most times, I use the forge for all steps.

If you wanted to do it all in the oven, about the only way to do dropping steps is program a very slow rate between stages by cooling at 50° per hour. That will work, but it will make a normalization set of cycles an overnight process. It will also decarb the crap out of the blade. I guess a foil packet would protect the blade, but you will still use a lot of electricity.

Some of the others may have a method they use.
Click to expand...

I kind of thought that trying to program it might be more hassle than benefit.

Thanks for the response :)
 
i used to worry about the power used but if you have a small kiln you will use less KW then a typical house dryer fro fabric hour to hour. and then we ask how many loads of wash do you do vs how many kiln runs. i dont run the kiln for 1 blade less they are paying for it my avg load is 6-12 blades per batch load and hopes of a 2nd load while the kiiln is heated up
 
butcher_block said:
i dont run the kiln for 1 blade less they are paying for it my avg load is 6-12 blades per batch load and hopes of a 2nd load while the kiiln is heated up
Click to expand...

My average load is 1 and I ain’t gettin paid for it, but I’m not worried about a return on my investment at this stage of the game. I’m new to metal.

I’m just trying to learn and have fun :)

My guitar building business is a different story. That’s wood. It does have some crossover into knives (handles) and I’m kinda looking forward to seeing if blacksmith skills can bring something to the guitar world. Bridges, tuning machines, decorative bits, etc
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
In my experience you can't program drops in temperature on a KF-18 very well ( I have one). I always get an over-temperature failure code. It can take hours to cool down just a little. You would have to pull the blade out, leave the door open for about 30 minutes, restart the program and skip to the next step, let the oven come to that temp, put the blade back in, etc.

The best way to do it is have three ovens set at 165o, 1500, 1nand 1350 :D;) I say that as a joke, but I have three ovens. I don't do normalizing that way, but you could.
On tricky steels, I have done the first step in the oven and then do all subsequent steps in the forge. Most times, I use the forge for all steps.

If you wanted to do it all in the oven, about the only way to do dropping steps is program a very slow rate between stages by cooling at 50° per hour. That will work, but it will make a normalization set of cycles an overnight process. It will also decarb the crap out of the blade. I guess a foil packet would protect the blade, but you will still use a lot of electricity.

Some of the others may have a method they use.
Click to expand...

Ok next dumb question :)

I normalized this knife and then hardened it. It hardened but not as much as I expected.

It’s Aldo 1084, all stock removal, no forging.

Normalized 1650, 1550, 1450, 1350. Soak 10 min at each temp and removed to cool in room for 10 minutes or so, then back in for next cycle.

Then heat to 1500, soak for 10 min, quench in parks 50 (warmed to 120)

65 file cuts, 60 file cuts but barely and not consistently everywhere. Just in a few spots and only a little. 55 file skates totally.

So I’m guessing it’s just south of 60. Maybe 58 or 59? Sound right?

I was thinking it would be higher and need to be tempered back a bit

Do I still need to temper this blade if that’s the hardness I was wanting?

Also, was my process OK or was it goofed?
 
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It will need tempering even if it hardened less than desired. The untempered structure is brittle. Temper twice at 300F if you think it is really only Rc60.

Hardness files are almost useless IMHO. They read less accurate as you use then because the teeth dull down. My understanding is that they just bite a tad at the correct reading.
I have a friend who uses hardness chisels and he seems to get pretty accurate results. The good thing about them is you can re-sharpen them as often as needed.

If you didn't grind away the decarb after that HT protocol, you are testing a soft skin over a hard knife. Grind it down to goo metal along the spine and test again.
My guess is that it is harder than you think it is. If unsure, harden again.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
It will need tempering even if it hardened less than desired. The untempered structure is brittle. Temper twice at 300F if you think it is really only Rc60.

Hardness files are almost useless IMHO. They read less accurate as you use then because the teeth dull down. My understanding is that they just bite a tad at the correct reading.
I have a friend who uses hardness chisels and he seems to get pretty accurate results. The good thing about them is you can re-sharpen them as often as needed.

If you didn't grind away the decarb after that HT protocol, you are testing a soft skin over a hard knife. Grind it down to goo metal along the spine and test again.
My guess is that it is harder than you think it is. If unsure, harden again.
Click to expand...

Thanks again Stacy.

I actually did grind to clean metal. the decarb wasnt too bad. I used SS wrap for the normalizing cycles
so it was pretty clean going into the quench. My files are new and the 60 bit just a very little, so thats probably about the right hardness.

If I did want to re-harden, can I just re-do the hardening step or do I need to re-normalize?
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Just re-harden.
Click to expand...

And that’s what I ended up doing. Same deal. Soak at 1500 for 10 min and straight into the oil.

This time I took some advise I saw posted elsewhere in this forum and agitated vigorously slicing back and forth through the oil.

This time it got real hard. The HRC 65 file skated totally. Tempered at 400 for 60 min and its kinda exactly where it was before around 60 but this time I presume not brittle.

Thanks again for all the tips. I’m sure you haven’t heard the last of me :)
 
Having enough quenchant volume is also very important. Most new makers quench in much too little oil.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Having enough quenchant volume is also very important. Most new makers quench in much too little oil.
Click to expand...

I have a rectangular metal container 18 x 10 x 8 holding roughly 5 1/2 gallons of parks 50. According to what I've read this should be more than enough.

I had to get one thing right, didnt I? This was my one ;)
 
Yes, that is sufficient. Good on you fort getting the right quenchant and amount.

One thing I forgot to say in my earlier response is that you do not warm Parks #50. It is used at ambient temperature - 50-90F is the norm. warming it makes it not work as well.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Yes, that is sufficient. Good on you fort getting the right quenchant and amount.

One thing I forgot to say in my earlier response is that you do not warm Parks #50. It is used at ambient temperature - 50-90F is the norm. warming it makes it not work as well.
Click to expand...

That would explain my first quench coming out softer than I expected. I definitely warmed it to 120 F.

On my re-harden last night I left it at room temp.
 
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