Every sandpaper sharpening question ever

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Oct 3, 2016
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This is actually a not-so-subtle request for a sticky thread about sandpaper-based knife sharpening, since there is so much contradicting information I get from Youtube videos... :)

  1. Abrasive: Many people recommend Wet Or Dry (= SiC?) sandpaper over the cheapo kind - is this something that makes a difference? A thread "Cheap abrasive paper is the devil" hints that this makes a BIG difference - for knife makers.
  2. Base: glass? ceramic? soft mouse pad? not-soft mouse pad?
  3. Base adhesive: something to bother about?
  4. Grits: which grits do you normally use? (I'm going to guess that the answer is roughly the same as stones)
  5. Stroke type: only stropping motions, or all is fine (as long as the pressure applied is light)?
  6. Cost: it is clear that proper stones are more expensive but a better investment in the long term - at which point does it break even (i.e. if you sharpen a few knives a week, maybe you won't notice)?
  7. Weaknesses: Cliff Stamp mentioned that sandpaper apexes the edge too fast, so worn-out steel doesn't get removed. Is that really a problem, and how to compensate for it? Is the convex grind the only outcome, and when is that a problem? Are there other things to be aware of?
 
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I'm guessing that HeavyHanded knows this stuff veeeery well!

And yes, I'm aware of the WashBoard and I've drooled at it.
Converting the kit's cost to Canadian dollars and adding the customs charges makes that experiment unaffordable :(
 
I'm guessing that HeavyHanded knows this stuff veeeery well!

And yes, I'm aware of the WashBoard and I've drooled at it.
Converting the kit's cost to Canadian dollars and adding the customs charges makes that experiment unaffordable :(

Hey, shipping is only $7 more than to the States:)

  1. Abrasive: Many people recommend Wet Or Dry (= SiC?) sandpaper over the cheapo kind - is this something that makes a difference? A thread "Cheap abrasive paper is the devil" hints that this makes a BIG difference - for knife makers.
  2. Base: glass? ceramic? soft mouse pad? not-soft mouse pad?
  3. Base adhesive: something to bother about?
  4. Grits: which grits do you normally use? (I'm going to guess that the answer is roughly the same as stones)
  5. Stroke type: only stropping motions, or all is fine (as long as the pressure applied is light)?
  6. Cost: it is clear that proper stones are more expensive but a better investment in the long term - at which point does it break even (i.e. if you sharpen a few knives a week, maybe you won't notice)?
  7. Weaknesses: Cliff Stamp mentioned that sandpaper apexes the edge too fast, so worn-out steel doesn't get removed. Is that really a problem, and how to compensate for it? Is the convex grind the only outcome, and when is that a problem? Are there other things to be aware of?

1 - get the best wet/dry you can. Most if not all are Silicon Carbide closed coat. Do not use the stuff for wood! It is open coat/no load meaning the unit pressure is very high and the abrasive will dull rapidly used on hardened steel.

2 - base is glass, steel plate, if you can find a ceramic with a real fine pattern to it, a Washboard. The harder the better. Even 'A' weight papers have give and you want that give to be as slight as possible.

3- Spray adhesive or on glass a few drops of water, or wrap it around and tack it down. You'll want to wrap the long outside edges if you can, or you'll have a tendency to cut the paper, a lot, especially if your knife has any recurve at all.

4- Yes, 120, 320, 600/800, 1500, 2000 etc. Keep the jumps fairly small and do not try to do too much with a grit that is less coarse than the job calls for. Wet/dry can last a long time if you don't abuse. Also, keep it clean. Use an eraser or synthetic cork, clean it often. Don't press hard and don't let it load up. Think of your eraser as a splash of water on a waterstone - fairly often.

5 - depends - trailing cuts the paper less and extends the life of the wet/dry. Also takes longer. With familiarity you can do a scrub but start out trailing with exception of a few light leading passes to deburr.

6- Again it depends. Some folk cannot get through more than a few knives and the paper is spent. I generally nick the sheet or it gets crumpled on my workbench before it plays out. Per above comment, use them in a sensible progression and they last a long time. You cannot just lean on a medium grit and have it cut like a rougher stone - the paper will die very quickly if abused. It will last a looong time if not.
The sheet in this video has been used many times and still worked fine on s110v:
[video=youtube;eq2XRnxp6o8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq2XRnxp6o8[/video]

7 - I don't know how it could apex too quickly yet not remove enough steel. Besides, coarse abrasives stress the steel far more than any material you might cut unless you're cutting steel or rocks or seriously abusing the edge somehow. A dull edge usually has had the steel taken off about as gently as you're bound to get, not an issue.

Convexing is the biggest drawback. Use it over a hard surface and ideally it won't deviate any more than a somewhat sloppier freehand attempt on a hard stone. So if you have better form on wet/dry it will have less curvature than it will with weaker form on a super hard abrasive. Use light pressure.

After that price might be an issue. If you do a ton of broad bevel high stock removal then a bunch of hard stones are a better choice. For most people the wet/dry is a very competitive option.

One of the things Cliff might have been seeing, since the wet/dry has some conformability(?) to it, is possible for it lay in some scratch pattern without completely grinding to fresh steel. It looks like it overground the existing, but it really didn't. Look for a burr when grinding a fresh edge. With some familiarity you won't be fooled by this - is one of those cases where the macro view (naked eye) might be better than a loupe.

Pluses are - no water, oil etc unless you want to use them. Burr formation is lesser than on a hard surface, so for touchups you can just do a few backhone passes and usually refresh the edge without removing too much steel. It travels well, doesn't get contaminated, cleans up easily if you sharpen a rusty or dirty tool on it. SiC wet/dry works well on all steels up to the high Vanadium stuff at about 800 grit - after that it does start to struggle. Otherwise is one of the most consistent sharpening media across steel types you can get. If it loads up or gets cut, you toss it or keep it around for regular sanding jobs. Due to the slight bit of give, cosmetically your edges will look very nice.
 
Hi
This is actually a not-so-subtle request for a sticky thread about sandpaper-based knife sharpening, since there is so much contradicting information I get from Youtube videos... :)

  • Weaknesses: Cliff Stamp mentioned that sandpaper apexes the edge too fast, so worn-out steel doesn't get removed. Is that really a problem, and how to compensate for it? Is the convex grind the only outcome, and when is that a problem? Are there other things to be aware of?

How about exact an quote with link to original source, instead of paraphrase?
 
We don't quote cliff stamp here very often. He is the devil. He got banned for good reason.
Russ
 
Yup. Stiff Clamp got banned by the H.P.I.C. end of discussion.

Of course, you can still discuss your own understanding of different techniques.
 
Couple of other thoughts on sandpaper sharpening in general.

They come in weight referring to the thickness of the paper backing. At 120 or more coarse, the abrasive layer is so thick the paper will have very little give. At 320 grit from most manufacturers the weight switches to 'A', a thinner paper.

Inherent rigidity will hold OK from 320 to about 800, maybe 1000 grit. After that the abrasive layer relative to the paper will begin to decrease and inherent give will increase somewhat.

I highly recommend switching to a hard strop at 800-1000 grit or at least be very mindful of pressure when going to a finer grit, especially if the bevel is narrow. Wider bevel edges, Scandi, full Convex, have more surface area and so are more tolerant of this. If using on a V bevel I recommend dropping the spine a touch - you will likely lose a degree or two/side just to the paper give. This also holds true for films to a somewhat lesser extent, but the effect is still present.

When using wet/dry over 800 grit I lay a sheet of paper over the top and compress the wet dry by rubbing it down with a piece of wood or hard plastic. Over the Washboard teeth it makes a difference, over a flat surface I'm not confident you can generate enough pressure to really compress the paper formation but might be worth a try.

You can use water or mineral oil with wet/dry, but in my experience it shortens the life of the paper. It does give a bit of extra life to papers that have been used dry and are plugged to the point where an eraser can't restore them, but only for a short bit of work.

While not very scientific, here's some micrographs of edge convexing using wet/dry 600 or 800 grit (I can't recall which).

I compared it to a:
- DMT EF hone
- Razors's edge vitreous hone estimated at approx 800 grit
- wet/dry over steel plate, all at approx 4 ozs, and
- wet/dry over Washboard at 8-12 ozs - I applied more pressure to handicap the WB, test the hypothesis that the interrupted peaks of the WB causes the same "hardening" of the wet/dry as it does with regular paper. It does, WB convex is similar to vitreous stone, maybe a touch more, but far less than wet/dry over steel plate at a fraction of the applied pressure.

Test knife was hollow grind with V bevel 420 hc steel. Pics at 40x with a "contour" feature applied to highlight the shift.

DMT
DMTEFConvex_40X_Contour_zpsd92e769c.jpg


Razor's Edge
RE_Convex_40X_Contour_zpsc161fdee.jpg


Steel plate wet/dry
PlateConvex_40X_Contour_zpsf76fc76d.jpg


And Washboard
WBConvex_40X_Contour_zpsa28faa01.jpg


If I think of anything else I'll add it in. Bottomline, the biggest drawback is the convexing induced by paper formation under the abrasive layer - if not taken into account you can wind up making the apex more broad than you might intend.
 
Hi


How about exact an quote with link to original source, instead of paraphrase?

I've added a link to the caustic review of the WashBoard he did in the OP and adding it here. http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/washboard.html
I'm not super excited to link to this, honestly, because I felt that this review was missing a major point of the WashBoard as a teaching tool (and the nasty tone against HeavyHanded).
 
Couple of other thoughts on sandpaper sharpening in general.

They come in weight referring to the thickness of the paper backing. At 120 or more coarse, the abrasive layer is so thick the paper will have very little give. At 320 grit from most manufacturers the weight switches to 'A', a thinner paper.

Inherent rigidity will hold OK from 320 to about 800, maybe 1000 grit. After that the abrasive layer relative to the paper will begin to decrease and inherent give will increase somewhat.

I highly recommend switching to a hard strop at 800-1000 grit or at least be very mindful of pressure when going to a finer grit, especially if the bevel is narrow. Wider bevel edges, Scandi, full Convex, have more surface area and so are more tolerant of this. If using on a V bevel I recommend dropping the spine a touch - you will likely lose a degree or two/side just to the paper give. This also holds true for films to a somewhat lesser extent, but the effect is still present.

When using wet/dry over 800 grit I lay a sheet of paper over the top and compress the wet dry by rubbing it down with a piece of wood or hard plastic. Over the Washboard teeth it makes a difference, over a flat surface I'm not confident you can generate enough pressure to really compress the paper formation but might be worth a try.

You can use water or mineral oil with wet/dry, but in my experience it shortens the life of the paper. It does give a bit of extra life to papers that have been used dry and are plugged to the point where an eraser can't restore them, but only for a short bit of work.

While not very scientific, here's some micrographs of edge convexing using wet/dry 600 or 800 grit (I can't recall which).

I compared it to a:
- DMT EF hone
- Razors's edge vitreous hone estimated at approx 800 grit
- wet/dry over steel plate, all at approx 4 ozs, and
- wet/dry over Washboard at 8-12 ozs - I applied more pressure to handicap the WB, test the hypothesis that the interrupted peaks of the WB causes the same "hardening" of the wet/dry as it does with regular paper. It does, WB convex is similar to vitreous stone, maybe a touch more, but far less than wet/dry over steel plate at a fraction of the applied pressure.

Test knife was hollow grind with V bevel 420 hc steel. Pics at 40x with a "contour" feature applied to highlight the shift.

DMT
DMTEFConvex_40X_Contour_zpsd92e769c.jpg


Razor's Edge
RE_Convex_40X_Contour_zpsc161fdee.jpg


Steel plate wet/dry
PlateConvex_40X_Contour_zpsf76fc76d.jpg


And Washboard
WBConvex_40X_Contour_zpsa28faa01.jpg


If I think of anything else I'll add it in. Bottomline, the biggest drawback is the convexing induced by paper formation under the abrasive layer - if not taken into account you can wind up making the apex more broad than you might intend.

I'm not used to such graphics - so let me know if I interpret them properly. Purple and yellow indicate deeper scratches, whereas gray and blue are shallower areas?
So the fewer purple and yellow is better? And if it is there, the scratch should meet the apex?

By that criteria, DMT is best, and WashBoard is better than the steel plate. And the Razor's Edge is slightly better than the WashBoard.
(Restricted to this sample, obviously)

Did I get that right?
 
You're funny! The exchange rate and the customs are not :( Perhaps I'll come to Rochester one day to visit a friend, and I'll get it in person :D

I'm not aware of any customs charges, but the exchange rate is a different story....

I'd be happy to take a stack of Loonies and Toonies at a one to one, but the shipping on your end would cost more than the exchange rate! I'd be more than happy to sell you one in person, I'll even pick up the New York sales tax :)

I don't get up to Canada as much as I used to, though I do get up to the 1000 Islands a couple times a year - I'm overdue for a trip to Nova Scotia, some of my wife's people are from P.E. Island.
 
I've added a link to the caustic review of the WashBoard he did in the OP and adding it here. http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/washboard.html
I'm not super excited to link to this, honestly, because I felt that this review was missing a major point of the WashBoard as a teaching tool (and the nasty tone against HeavyHanded).

Yeah, I had to break off before I got banned from HIS site.

Amazing, only after bashing my work did he go back and try to learn how to sharpen with sandpaper... Completely disregarded everything I told him about the Washboard, best practices, and sandpaper in general. Though IIRC he actually did begin in his own way to verify some of the product claims before he lost interest.

It still pains me to know one of my hand-tooled boards is languishing somewhere in his possession or discarded. I received a bunch at the time and still get the odd email of support from folks who stumble across that thread wondering what he was pulling - and this from people who don't own a Washboard or in some cases even heard of it before. It'll stand tall in an objective appraisal, is no match for a large ego and a heap of preconceived notions.
 
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I'm not used to such graphics - so let me know if I interpret them properly. Purple and yellow indicate deeper scratches, whereas gray and blue are shallower areas?
So the fewer purple and yellow is better? And if it is there, the scratch should meet the apex?

By that criteria, DMT is best, and WashBoard is better than the steel plate. And the Razor's Edge is slightly better than the WashBoard.
(Restricted to this sample, obviously)

Did I get that right?

Pretty much. They indicate more contrast, so deeper scratches and/or greater shift of surface relative to the light source. The DMT has an unfair advantage being a much smaller scratch, but its clear it also has less overall surface shift too. Being a hard plate and smaller abrasive, that's the control image.
 
I've added a link to the caustic review of the WashBoard he did in the OP and adding it here. http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/washboard.html
I'm not super excited to link to this, honestly, because I felt that this review was missing a major point of the WashBoard as a teaching tool (and the nasty tone against HeavyHanded).

Wow and more wow. I generally consider Cliff to be an objective "science approach" type guy when he's discussing sharpening. I've learned some things from him and he's made me think about things.

But this "review" and the corresponding thread don't seem objective at all. I'm not sure what to make of it, other than it not seeming fair at all because he presents his evaluation as a "review", yet then says "it's not a review at all, it's an experiment". He's trying to have it both ways. I didn't have the energy to read past the (very lengthy) first page of the related thread on his site; that was enough for me. I'm now beginning to understand why so many people get upset at the mere mention of this name. That reaction to him has honestly puzzled me for a long time; now I'm starting to see the reasons.

Brian.
Brian.
 
Wow and more wow. I generally consider Cliff to be an objective "science approach" type guy when he's discussing sharpening. I've learned some things from him and he's made me think about things.

But this "review" and the corresponding thread don't seem objective at all. I'm not sure what to make of it, other than it not seeming fair at all because he presents his evaluation as a "review", yet then says "it's not a review at all, it's an experiment". He's trying to have it both ways. I didn't have the energy to read past the (very lengthy) first page of the related thread on his site; that was enough for me. I'm now beginning to understand why so many people get upset at the mere mention of this name. That reaction to him has honestly puzzled me for a long time; now I'm starting to see the reasons.

Brian.
Brian.

Brian, I'd pretty much forgotten about my "association" with him, we aren't very compatible I'm afraid. I stumbled across that well after I abandoned his site, was surprised he bothered to write up a summary, equally surprised at some of the assertions he attributed to me - really put a bunch of stuff in my mouth I never said.

Here's the link to the thread where he "tested" it, and the earlier thread where I explained best practices. Its just as painful to read, but if anyone wants the whole story it makes good bedtime reading.


http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?29,32173

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?20,24863

Also an observation made by one of the other test users who wound up (by accident) using it as advertised:

A Global 8" Chef knife and a Mora 106 were already decently sharp, but re-sharpened on the worn 320 followed directly by paper charged with the included polishing compound. In my mind, this should not work well, but it did. The edge push cuts arm hair above the skin and peels thin shavings off a basswood block, and yet sliced through a tomato using only blade weight. Nice combination of push vs slicing performance.

Just last night I was tuning up my trusty Chicago cutlery utility knife and breaking in a newish Crystalon fine 8x3" hone. Went right to the WB with the newer compound and a drop of oil and it was treetopping arm hairs. I guess that's common for a strop...
 
Let's try to keep the discussion on topic. We're really not interested in any cross-forum drama or discussion of a banned member.

Thanks and please continue on.

Jason
 
I'll add one last thing to the sandpaper usage.

It takes some familiarity to tell when the paper is spent. And there will also be a span where its on the decline.

Without some practice you wouldn't have a gauge to compare. Save the sheets that you suspect are no longer working well so you can compare to new ones if you want. After a short while one can tell pretty quickly if their paper is cooked or some other factor at play.
 
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