F.Dick Dickoron Sapphire cut oval sharpening steel?

[lonestar1979]

Is this steel good for anything besides sharpening softer,lower rc knives?Have had it for a while but havent used much,and when I used its just for butcher and paring knives.I get shaving sharp edge when using it on these.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

F. Dick steels are as hard as a good quality file. Just think to yourself--can you use a good quality file on the knife in question? If not, the steel won't do much. If so, you can use it no problem.

 

[lonestar1979]

The steel gives me a nice toothy edge on my kitchen knives in seconds.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I get the impression the 'Sapphire' naming of the steel is perhaps misleading, implying some sort of ceramic rod. If it were actually sapphire, i.e., aluminum oxide/ceramic, it could be as useful as any ceramic rod on many knife alloys. But having looked at the mfr.'s own description of it, it sounds as if it's only unique characteristic is the finishing/groove pattern on the rod. Otherwise, it seems to be just another honing steel for kitchen use. Assuming it's high enough quality for that, it should do fine on kitchen knives, at least. I wouldn't really expect it to do much good on more wear-resistant, carbide-heavy alloys though, in terms of abrasion, though it might still 'align' rolled or burred edges, as with any honing steel.


David

 

[lonestar1979]

It is called saphire,but it is smoother steel with small grooves,its very good on kitchen knives,still havent tried it on some harder rc knives.For my victorinox ,swibo and f.dick knives it is super easy to touch up and very nice shaving edge.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I get the impression the 'Sapphire' naming of the steel is perhaps misleading, implying some sort of ceramic rod. If it were actually sapphire, i.e., aluminum oxide/ceramic, it could be as useful as any ceramic rod on many knife alloys. But having looked at the mfr.'s own description of it, it sounds as if it's only unique characteristic is the finishing/groove pattern on the rod. Otherwise, it seems to be just another honing steel for kitchen use. Assuming it's high enough quality for that, it should do fine on kitchen knives, at least. I wouldn't really expect it to do much good on more wear-resistant, carbide-heavy alloys though, in terms of abrasion, though it might still 'align' rolled or burred edges, as with any honing steel.


David

The cut of the steel is called "sapphire". It's not to imply anything about the material, but rather it's their finest cut short of a smooth steel. It's a traditional term for an extra-extra-fine cut on a honing steel.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

The cut of the steel is called "sapphire". It's not to imply anything about the material, but rather it's their finest cut short of a smooth steel. It's a traditional term for an extra-extra-fine cut on a honing steel.

Thanks. :thumbup:


David

 

[ToddS]

F. Dick steels are as hard as a good quality file. Just think to yourself--can you use a good quality file on the knife in question? If not, the steel won't do much. If so, you can use it no problem.

I've not handled these particular steels, but where does the idea that they act like a file come from? Is it not just a fluted/grooved rod?

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I've not handled these particular steels, but where does the idea that they act like a file come from? Is it not just a fluted/grooved rod?

First of all, my remark was chiefly regarding the hardness of the steel relative to the knife. For a knife to work properly with a steel the steel needs to be harder than the knife is. Secondly, steels are basically like very very very fine files with the "teeth" running perpendicular to the long axis of the tool. That's the whole reason why steels are made in different cuts--again, like files are. The flutes or grooves are like extremely wide and fine single-cut file teeth. You may notice in repeated use that a steel become magnetized and that metal fines are collecting on the tip of the steel. Ever wonder where those came from?

 

[ToddS]

First of all, my remark was chiefly regarding the hardness of the steel relative to the knife. For a knife to work properly with a steel the steel needs to be harder than the knife is. Secondly, steels are basically like very very very fine files with the "teeth" running perpendicular to the long axis of the tool. That's the whole reason why steels are made in different cuts--again, like files are. The flutes or grooves are like extremely wide and fine single-cut file teeth. You may notice in repeated use that a steel become magnetized and that metal fines are collecting on the tip of the steel. Ever wonder where those came from?

From what I can tell, the purpose of the fluting on a steel is to reduce the contact area with the blade and thereby increase the pressure at those contact points so that the relatively smooth surface of the "ridge" can gently abrade the apex of the blade. A diamond "steel" on the other hand does act like a file since there are sharp points of contact that actually cut into the blade.

 

[HeavyHanded]

From what I can tell, the purpose of the fluting on a steel is to reduce the contact area with the blade and thereby increase the pressure at those contact points so that the relatively smooth surface of the "ridge" can gently abrade the apex of the blade. A diamond "steel" on the other hand does act like a file since there are sharp points of contact that actually cut into the blade.

... Secondly, steels are basically like very very very fine files with the "teeth" running perpendicular to the long axis of the tool. That's the whole reason why steels are made in different cuts--again, like files are. The flutes or grooves are like extremely wide and fine single-cut file teeth. You may notice in repeated use that a steel become magnetized and that metal fines are collecting on the tip of the steel. Ever wonder where those came from?

When using a coarse grooved rod on low RC steel with good lighting, you can actually see metal fines coming off. As Forty Two says, they are like a file.

Presumably at some point in how fine they become, the action switches over to more burnishing, peaking with a smooth steel that is virtually 100% burnishing.

Using a grooved steel on a blade with too high RC will tear up the grooved steel.

If you study the scratch marks from a grooved steel, you will see they lay in just like a stone, or more accurately, just like a file. And just like a file, the first few passes will skate no matter until the "glaze" is removed and the steel begins to cut in.

Much like with an abrasive that is not up to a tougher steel, using a grooved steel on a tough blade will leave you with a drawn and scraped up edge, not at all like one gets when the tool and knife blade are a good match.

A lot of the confusion comes from a lack of understanding re traditional Western cutlery. Most of which are/were run to high 40s low 50s RC. In much the same way a file gives lousy results on high RC and/or high carbide steels, the grooved steel is bound by the same constraints.

A smooth steel is in some respects more versatile, but has a smaller range of use. Since it only burnishes it can work on higher RC, but its only burnishing. Any steel it removes is from played and drawn out metal along the edge. On higher RC, a stone of some sort works better to set the edge and the smooth steel to refine it.

 

[ToddS]

When using a coarse grooved rod on low RC steel with good lighting, you can actually see metal fines coming off. As Forty Two says, they are like a file.

Presumably at some point in how fine they become, the action switches over to more burnishing, peaking with a smooth steel that is virtually 100% burnishing.

Using a grooved steel on a blade with too high RC will tear up the grooved steel.

If you study the scratch marks from a grooved steel, you will see they lay in just like a stone, or more accurately, just like a file. And just like a file, the first few passes will skate no matter until the "glaze" is removed and the steel begins to cut in.

Much like with an abrasive that is not up to a tougher steel, using a grooved steel on a tough blade will leave you with a drawn and scraped up edge, not at all like one gets when the tool and knife blade are a good match.

A lot of the confusion comes from a lack of understanding re traditional Western cutlery. Most of which are/were run to high 40s low 50s RC. In much the same way a file gives lousy results on high RC and/or high carbide steels, the grooved steel is bound by the same constraints.

A smooth steel is in some respects more versatile, but has a smaller range of use. Since it only burnishes it can work on higher RC, but its only burnishing. Any steel it removes is from played and drawn out metal along the edge. On higher RC, a stone of some sort works better to set the edge and the smooth steel to refine it.

I've been looking at a variety of "steels" in detail using mostly Olfa snap-blades, which I have read are low 60s RC. I haven't measured them myself, and I can't confirm that the 'factory edge' is that hard. What I have observed though is not consistent with what you seem to be saying.

The grooved steels I own all have smooth ridges, but those ridges are narrow and make a very small contact area. They certainly abrade not burnish the olfa blades. Are you talking about steels with texture along the ridge?

I definitely need some clarification of what a "smooth" steel is. For example, I have an inexpensive white aluminum oxide "steeling" rod that is polished very smooth, but easily abrades SV30 when used in a steeling action. Is this a "smooth steel" or an "abrasive rod?"

 

[DeadboxHero]

From what I can tell, the purpose of the fluting on a steel is to reduce the contact area with the blade and thereby increase the pressure at those contact points so that the relatively smooth surface of the "ridge" can gently abrade the apex of the blade. A diamond "steel" on the other hand does act like a file since there are sharp points of contact that actually cut into the blade.

Nah, Its Just as 42blades said its a very, very, very fine file.

And nah, a diamond steel is an abrasive, not a file

I've been looking at a variety of "steels" in detail using mostly Olfa snap-blades, which I have read are low 60s RC. I haven't measured them myself, and I can't confirm that the 'factory edge' is that hard. What I have observed though is not consistent with what you seem to be saying.

The grooved steels I own all have smooth ridges, but those ridges are narrow and make a very small contact area. They certainly abrade not burnish the olfa blades. Are you talking about steels with texture along the ridge?

I definitely need some clarification of what a "smooth" steel is. For example, I have an inexpensive white aluminum oxide "steeling" rod that is polished very smooth, but easily abrades SV30 when used in a steeling action. Is this a "smooth steel" or an "abrasive rod?"

The smooth steels or " honing" steels are used in butchery, it just a smooth, shiny hardened steel rod, no ridges
The "sharpening" steels have the grooves but they don't really remove steel so they don't sharpen

Ceramic "steels" are just high purity white alumina abrasive in the shape of a rod and are the most efficientive. But they get darkened and clogged with metal shavings and need to be cleaned over time.

The diamond steels are too coarse for what most people think of "steeling"
And can wear a blade out fast. But if used judiciously can be used in a pinch to sharpen or produce a toothy edge.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Well, here's a couple pics that may or may not illustrate anything useful. The first two are from a relatively unused grooved steel of Japanese origin. I have no details of its pedigree - seems pretty tough, not terribly aggressive but still cuts metal well.

You can see how the grooves are gouged/tooled and the burred, deformed edges on either side of the lands are allowed to remain. Presumably it is then hardened and or chrome plated. Not exactly like a file, but the raised bit of steel that forms the tooth on a file from being chisel-struck has a lot in common with a thicker burr.

The middle one is an older Foster Brothers smooth, showing very little texture, though some is present. My own tinkering showed an improvement in burnishing when some texture was left on the rod opposed to a super bright finish.

The last two are an older Imperial (?) steel that has been around for a long time - I bought it heavily used and used it some more for a number of years. It has the same burring formations along the lands on the steel, though showing much wear.

In general, I have yet to find a steel that was grooved, meaning I could not make out my reflection in it, that did not have this type of formation on the lands to some extent. I have a couple of modern ones, a Henckels and one other, they all look the same.

As I said, presumably at some point this leaves off for an almost 100% burnishing, but I'm not sure what that looks like under magnification. And then, I'm familiar with steels but do not claim to be anything approaching an expert, my sample is relatively small.