Fastest, longest lasting waterstone

C

cap'njake

Joined
Aug 15, 2016
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206
I got into freehand sharpening with waterstones a few months ago. I got the norton combo stones with the 220/1000 and 4000/8000 grit stones. I took to them well and get hair whittling edges easily. Actually been sharpening knives for people for a little extra money to fund my new hobby. Anyways I sharpen every day now and am wearing these norton stones out real fast. (Mostly the 220/1000 stone) So I am preparing to buy some better stones. I want fast cutting and long lasting. Looking at shapton pro but don't know if there is anything better. Any suggestions?

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Shapton Glass stones are some of the fastest cutting and slowest wearing but they are only designed to last as long as the average 1 inch thick stone while being only 5mm thick. How long your stones last will depend on a few factors like how much you sharpen and how much work needs to be done to an individual blade. If you are sharpening for others then its almost a must that you own a belt grinder to take the stress off of fast wearing coarse stones. ALL COARSE STONES SUCK! some just suck less than others... and none are all that slow wearing. I find it really depends on the type of blade and steel to be sharpened and if you use the wrong coarse stone the process can be painful.

I like the Atoma 140, DMT XXC, Nubatama Bamboo 150 and Shapton Glass 120 (in that order) when it comes to coarse stones. The diamond plates seem to do well on all but very hard Japanese Kitchen knives and some softer carbon steels.

The down side of Stones like the Shapton glass is that you are forced to purchase a diamond plate for lapping, but that's only for 500 grit and up stones. The lower grits will ruin a diamond stone so Shapton has a Puck and Silicon carbide lapping powder that should be used not only to keep them flat but provide proper surface texture. Without proper surface texture they can glaze over and lose almost all cutting power.

For high volume sharpening I have personally used the Naniwa Chosera 400 and Naniwa 2k Green brick on thousands and thousands of knives. It's without a doubt my most used set of stones. While I mainly use Shapton Glass these days I still keep my Naniwa stones ready to go. Actually, I just sharpened a Swamp Rat RMD the other day with this Naniwa combo, the customer said this,

I have to say I could not be more impressed. I have never experienced a tool so sharp. I did not know a blade, especially this large, could be so well refined
Click to expand...


There are many options but depending on what you sharpen some options could be much better than others so....

What type of knives are you sharpening?
What steels?
 
Jason B. said:
Shapton Glass stones are some of the fastest cutting and slowest wearing but they are only designed to last as long as the average 1 inch thick stone while being only 5mm thick. How long your stones last will depend on a few factors like how much you sharpen and how much work needs to be done to an individual blade. If you are sharpening for others then its almost a must that you own a belt grinder to take the stress off of fast wearing coarse stones. ALL COARSE STONES SUCK! some just suck less than others... and none are all that slow wearing. I find it really depends on the type of blade and steel to be sharpened and if you use the wrong coarse stone the process can be painful.

I like the Atoma 140, DMT XXC, Nubatama Bamboo 150 and Shapton Glass 120 (in that order) when it comes to coarse stones. The diamond plates seem to do well on all but very hard Japanese Kitchen knives and some softer carbon steels.

The down side of Stones like the Shapton glass is that you are forced to purchase a diamond plate for lapping, but that's only for 500 grit and up stones. The lower grits will ruin a diamond stone so Shapton has a Puck and Silicon carbide lapping powder that should be used not only to keep them flat but provide proper surface texture. Without proper surface texture they can glaze over and lose almost all cutting power.

For high volume sharpening I have personally used the Naniwa Chosera 400 and Naniwa 2k Green brick on thousands and thousands of knives. It's without a doubt my most used set of stones. While I mainly use Shapton Glass these days I still keep my Naniwa stones ready to go. Actually, I just sharpened a Swamp Rat RMD the other day with this Naniwa combo, the customer said this,




There are many options but depending on what you sharpen some options could be much better than others so....

What type of knives are you sharpening?
What steels?
Click to expand...
Mostly high carbon steels and simple stainless steels. 420hc has been the most common so far. ( lots of buck knives. ) I didn't know the glass stones were supposed to last that long. Didn't consider them because I assumed they would wear out fast since they are so thin.

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Thickness is a bit irrelevant between the Pro and Glass lines, AFAIK they are both rated to the same service life. The only real differences between the two in wear rate seems to come with the coarse stones, the pro's are more muddy while the Glass tend to produce more swarf. The pro's wear a little faster in the coarse range while I think the Glass wear a little faster in the finer stones. Something that is a little difficult to understand without using them it that the Pro stones are softer but wear slower while the Glass stones are harder and wear faster.

Instead of hardness we should be using density, it's really what describes the differences best.


That said, I would highly recommend the Naniwa combo. You don't need a diamond plate to lap them so they are a little more budget friendly. The 2k is on the softer side but very slow wearing, big stone too so it will last forever. The 400 is much harder but has great feedback and is very comfortable to use. It should be noted that the 400 is claimed to be faster than a Shapton 120 and in some cases I find it to be true. The 2k also produces a good level of polish, equal to a lot of 4000 and 5000 grit stones.
 
Jason B.
Agree completely on your combo recommendation. I was ready to chuck the Naniwa 400 when trying to flatten/polish woodworking tools...the swarf slowed me to no end, but it's great starter on nearly every knife I've sharpened. The 2k is truly joy, easy leap from 800 and no need to go further for polish, although I like a 5-8k final edge.

Question on thinning, my Nubatama Bamboo 150 seems to take a long time on thick western knives, thinking of something more coarse to start...worried Atoma 140 might leave deep/troublesome scratches...what's been your exp?
 
dufus53 said:
Jason B.
Agree completely on your combo recommendation. I was ready to chuck the Naniwa 400 when trying to flatten/polish woodworking tools...the swarf slowed me to no end, but it's great starter on nearly every knife I've sharpened. The 2k is truly joy, easy leap from 800 and no need to go further for polish, although I like a 5-8k final edge.


Question on thinning, my Nubatama Bamboo 150 seems to take a long time on thick western knives, thinking of something more coarse to start...worried Atoma 140 might leave deep/troublesome scratches...what's been your exp?
Click to expand...


I usually do a Atoma 140, Chosera 400, 2kGB on softer cutlery. I have no problem going from the 140 to the 400.
 
.

Jason B.

Looking at Sharpening Supplies website, there are 4 Naniwa product line series:

1) Economical

2) Traditional

3) Sharpening (Formerly Superstone)

4) Professional (Formerly Chosera)

The Naniwa 400 and 2K you mention, are these both the Chosera models? Also, is the 2K the one that is also known as the "green brick of joy?"

Do you lap the above two stones with an Atoma 140?

Thank You.
 
The 400 Professional and 2k Green Brick of Joy are the stones I am speaking of.
 
dufus53 said:
Question on thinning, my Nubatama Bamboo 150 seems to take a long time on thick western knives, thinking of something more coarse to start...worried Atoma 140 might leave deep/troublesome scratches...what's been your exp?
Click to expand...

The Nubatama 150 is weird right? I was told it would cut like a demon, but for me, it's just "pretty coarse" in terms of metal removal. Letting the mud build up seems to help some, but it's only maybe a 30% improvement (and I'm making that number up).

Ken Schwartz has told me (and written online) that moving from the DMT XXC to the Nubatama 150 is a good combo because the 150 "converts the scratch pattern" over so you can then use a progression of water stones. The DMT XXC and the Atoma 140 should be fairly comparable in scratch pattern.

No insult to the 150 intended. It's a good stone; just different than I was initially expecting.

Brian.
 
Anyone tried Sigma power select II 1k? I saw a vid of some guy sharpening a ceramic knife on one. Pretty amazing.
 
MichaelMyers said:
Anyone tried Sigma power select II 1k? I saw a vid of some guy sharpening a ceramic knife on one. Pretty amazing.
Click to expand...

That was me, and while Sigma Power Select II's are probably the fastest cutting waterstones on the market as a result of being made of silicon carbide with minimal binder, they are absolutely not long lasting as the relative lack of binder makes them very friable and thus gives them a very high wear rate compared to some other stones.

Given the relatively limited carbide volume of the steels cap'n'jake has, I think Jason's recommendations are quite sensible. If I was only sharpening carbon steels and 420HC I would probably stick with a Chosera 400 and the Green Brick as well.
 
I'm going to toss this out there in regard to the OPs general situation.

The Norton 220 wears fast and is too soft really to fill the role it should compared to other options. In my set I swapped it out for a King 240. The Norton 1k is also somewhat soft but a fast reliable stone. I have learned to move all around the surface and so when lapping (which I do less often) I only have to remove a small amount to true it back up - overall its not disappearing at anywhere near the rate my first one did (first one was 220/1k combo, second one is a full size single grit stone).

Emphasizing the trailing component of the pass as opposed to the leading across the stone likewise minimizes wear.

I only mention all this because/despite having some "faster" and much harder stones I still reach for my Nortons most often, especially on Western kitchen cutlery, whether it be vintage Sabatiers or modern stainless. They grind plenty fast and with less burr formation - being softer they are also more forgiving and I find them to have good feedback to boot - a factor that might be diminished somewhat on harder stones. This translates to less QC for the same quality edge in my experience.

I save my harder stones for the higher RC/higher alloy steels I come across and for woodworking tools where the added precision pays off. Just a thought.

Edit to add: I do not have a ton of experience across a large range of stones, but over the last year or so took a chance on the stones sold at Suzuki-Ya, eventually picking up the 400,1k,4k,8k. These are hard, fast, slow wearing stones that work well on everything short of the higher Vanadium stuff - HSS and large carbide steels no problem. Even higher VC steels can be handled up the 4k. They do not load and can be left permanently soaking.

https://fabulalignarius.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/found-the-ultimate-waterstone/
 
Last edited:
HeavyHanded said:
I'm going to toss this out there in regard to the OPs general situation.

The Norton 220 wears fast and is too soft really to fill the role it should compared to other options. In my set I swapped it out for a King 240. The Norton 1k is also somewhat soft but a fast reliable stone. I have learned to move all around the surface and so when lapping (which I do less often) I only have to remove a small amount to true it back up - overall its not disappearing at anywhere near the rate my first one did (first one was 220/1k combo, second one is a full size single grit stone).

Emphasizing the trailing component of the pass as opposed to the leading across the stone likewise minimizes wear.

I only mention all this because/despite having some "faster" and much harder stones I still reach for my Nortons most often, especially on Western kitchen cutlery, whether it be vintage Sabatiers or modern stainless. They grind plenty fast and with less burr formation - being softer they are also more forgiving and I find them to have good feedback to boot - a factor that might be diminished somewhat on harder stones. This translates to less QC for the same quality edge in my experience.

I save my harder stones for the higher RC/higher alloy steels I come across and for woodworking tools where the added precision pays off. Just a thought.

Edit to add: I do not have a ton of experience across a large range of stones, but over the last year or so took a chance on the stones sold at Suzuki-Ya, eventually picking up the 400,1k,4k,8k. These are hard, fast, slow wearing stones that work well on everything short of the higher Vanadium stuff - HSS and large carbide steels no problem. Even higher VC steels can be handled up the 4k. They do not load and can be left permanently soaking.

https://fabulalignarius.wordpress.com/2015/01/08/found-the-ultimate-waterstone/
Click to expand...
Thanks for the imput. And your right I have very little issue with the 1000 grit side of my stone. I also have no issue with the 4000 grit either. The 8000 stone loads up something terrible. Has anybody tried the nubatama ume 60 grit stone? I am interested in trying it for fixing chips and other small damage.

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Do not buy a 60 grit stone, you will be sorry.

Get the Bamboo 150 if you want a coarse brick.
 
Thank you for the above information, Jason. Very helpful for someone trying to purchase their first set of stones.
 
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