Favorite Civivi Steel?

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SkyStream

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I'm a big fan of Civivi and it's became my go to brand. They offer some of the best bangs for your buck, especially when you consider all the designers involved. With that, I just have a couple questions that maybe someone could answer besides the headline of this thread. Civivi has seemed to have ditched D2 steel, which was probably the best choice for me overall. I live in Michigan and have never had a D2 knife rust as of yet.

From my understanding, D2 has the best edge retention of any budget steel, which I prefer, but Civivi seems to mainly be using 14C and Nitro-V. Which of these has better edge retention? I also have a Civivi Sokoke on the way in Damascus. Does anybody know if Civivi is still using their 9CR for the Damascus base or have they switched to something else? Lastly, what is your favorite Civivi Steel and why? Thanks
 
Here’s a chart by Larrin showing that 14C28N and Nitro V both have similar edge retention, but 14C28N has superior toughness.

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I do not own any Civivi knives, but I do love 14C28N and Nitro V both. Same goes for AEB-L. Great alloys with really fantastic toughness.

In my opinion, they are very big improvements over D2. D2, when heat treated by the best, can be really good. For example, Dozier’s customs in D2 are phenomenal. But the alloy will never approach the chip-resistance of an alloy like 14C28N. 14C28N / AEB-L are simply tougher.
 
nhobo said:
If you are concerned about toughness and edge retention you should have ordered the Sokoke in 14C28N.
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For that particular knife, I really like the looks of the Damascus model. I don't really plan on using this to cut much. I'm just curious to know about the current Damascus. Thanks
 
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Enzo’s Woodshop said:
Here’s a chart by Larrin showing that 14C28N and Nitro V both have similar edge retention, but 14C28N has superior toughness.

View attachment 2154959


I do not own any Civivi knives, but I do love 14C28N and Nitro V both. Same goes for AEB-L. Great alloys with really fantastic toughness.

In my opinion, they are very big improvements over D2. D2, when heat treated by the best, can be really good. For example, Dozier’s customs in D2 are phenomenal. But the alloy will never approach the chip-resistance of an alloy like 14C28N. 14C28N / AEB-L are simply tougher.
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Thanks for the info. From the looks of this, it seems like the 14C is the clear winner. I wish Civivi would just use the 14C, instead of mixing in the Nitro-V so much.
 
Between 14C28N and Nitro V, the vast majority of users will never know the difference. Toughness is great for both(more than enough for a folder) and if you don't have issues with D2 rusting, then that won't ever be a problem either with either of these.

I wouldn't let a choice between these two steels be a factor in whether or not to buy a particular knife.
 
Nitro-V is a high-quality budget steel. 14C is a little bit better but you will likely never notice the difference unless you use the tools very aggressively. Even then you might not notice, for all practical purposes there is very little difference.
 
I haven’t used my Dogma enough to form an opinion on their D2, but my Ontario Rat 1 in D2 has been to work with me more than a few times and I never had any problems with corrosion. The edge retention was great too, I use/used it pretty hard and it’s holding up just fine.

For what it’s worth, I do have corrosion problems with M4, a bit. D2 is great if it’s done right.
It’s holding an edge better than my Kershaw Leeks do in 14C28N. I consider 14C a slight upgrade from 8CR and that’s about it 🤷‍♂️
I bet you could find some of the older Civivis around, most of them used D2
 
Unrelated, but every simple less is more civivi design I like comes in too small of a package.
 
The way civivi does knives is usually thin, small, nimble. I think S35VN is just about perfect for what they're going for, in terms of EDCable pocket knives. High edge retention, good corrosion resistance, okay toughness.

Failing that, 9cr18mov, 10cr15mov are fine. I think the only reason they went to AEBL, NitroV is because that's like the new cool thing that people like and they move knives.

My thoughts
 
Remember that chart values are all based on particular heat treatments and don't necessarily reflect what you'll be getting in a particular knife. For instance, Chinese D2 almost always falls well short of the performance charted by more expensive American knives with better heat treatments (and potentially more consistent starting material). You'll find that the performance gap between Chinese D2 and some of these other budget steels is much smaller than the charts would suggest.

On the other end, WE has largely perfected the heat treatment for their 9Cr18Mov in the Civivi, Sencut, and Ferrum Forge knives; making them noticeably better performers than your average knife in that steel. I have no reservations or concerns with their 9Cr18Mov and the knives using it remain some of the best budget knife values on the market.

Their Damascus uses 9Cr18Mov and 10Cr15CoMov. (10Cr15CoMov is effectively Chinese VG-10.) I haven't put much use on my Civivi Damascus but being something made mostly for looks, it's cool that you can actually use it and still come out ahead of stuff like 8Cr13Mov.
 
I tend to avoid Civivi D2, as it's a steel that doesn't always work as well when tossed by the hundreds into an oven for super mass production. They make cheap Damascus which looks nice, but I'm more drawn to the 154CM and S35VN because it seems to be chosen for their nicer knives.
 
Interesting notes about the chinese D2, as the only D2 I've ever used is chinese in origin... but I still found it a very noticeable upgrade vs spyderco's 8Cr13MoV.
 
calm said:
Is all US D2 the same, or are some companies better?
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It largely depends on the heat treatment but in general, you can expect all the D2 on knives actually made in the United States to have noticeably better edge retention than Chinese D2. Beyond mass-production heat treatments, there has been some question about the chemical consistency of Chinese D2. For instance, the vanadium content seems to vary more than it should. These issues (and growing knowledge of issues with Chinese D2) have led a couple of the Chinese manufacturers who use a lot of D2 to start offering Bohler K110 as an upgrade. (It's effectively German D2 made with stricter quality control.)

SwissHeritageCo said:
Interesting notes about the chinese D2, as the only D2 I've ever used is chinese in origin... but I still found it a very noticeable upgrade vs spyderco's 8Cr13MoV.
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While performance varies for Chinese D2, it still tends to be a slam dunk over 8Cr13Mov. That's where I mainly see value in Chinese D2: as a general mass-market replacement for 8Cr13Mov. That's exactly where some companies use it, such as in the $30ish D2 knives from Petrified Fish.

Coincidentally, AUS-8 tends to perform better than 8Cr13Mov despite being very similar in composition. While 8Cr13Mov is better than lesser steels like 420, 5Cr15, or AUS-6; it just isn't a good budget steel by today's standards. That's the rub for Kershaw, CRKT, Spyderco, etc.; who keep choosing this steel for their Chinese-made budget knives while the Chinese companies are offering much better budget steels at better prices.
 
Chronovore said:
It largely depends on the heat treatment but in general, you can expect all the D2 on knives actually made in the United States to have noticeably better edge retention than Chinese D2. Beyond mass-production heat treatments, there has been some question about the chemical consistency of Chinese D2. For instance, the vanadium content seems to vary more than it should. These issues (and growing knowledge of issues with Chinese D2) have led a couple of the Chinese manufacturers who use a lot of D2 to start offering Bohler K110 as an upgrade. (It's effectively German D2 made with stricter quality control.)



While performance varies for Chinese D2, it still tends to be a slam dunk over 8Cr13Mov. That's where I mainly see value in Chinese D2: as a general mass-market replacement for 8Cr13Mov. That's exactly where some companies use it, such as in the $30ish D2 knives from Petrified Fish.

Coincidentally, AUS-8 tends to perform better than 8Cr13Mov despite being very similar in composition. While 8Cr13Mov is better than lesser steels like 420, 5Cr15, or AUS-6; it just isn't a good budget steel by today's standards. That's the rub for Kershaw, CRKT, Spyderco, etc.; who keep choosing this steel for their Chinese-made budget knives while the Chinese companies are offering much better budget steels at better prices.
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I've abused the hell out of it, cutting against rocky dirt, cutting roofs off of concrete, old sandy wood etc. If it's chipped it must have been on a micro level because it's been sharpened out in 5 minutes flat.

I do change the geometry to a beautiful hand honed convex, which I'm sure has helped.. but it's still a thin hard edge clocked at 62hrc (again, D2).

As a budget chinese steel, I welcome it. While I deeply appreciate $500 folders and the craftsmanship/tolerances involved... there is something to say about a cheap affordable tool you can use and abuse without worry, especially when it cleans back up so easily.

Most of my tool appreciation comes from usage and function, and unless I become a millionaire I doubt I will ever be able to use a $500 knife like I would a sub $75 knife.
 
calm said:
Is all US D2 the same, or are some companies better?
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Heat treatments in general are going to vary from company to company, steel to steel for companies. I hold Buck 420HC made in the US with higher regard than potentially better steels made by someone else. It's not that D2 is a bad steel at all, it's when it's treated as a budget steel by industry for mass production that is where the problems can start. The lower prices for mass produced D2 knives is enticing, can be good, but that also means you're getting a bunch of first time knife owners learning to sharpen their knives on D2, which given the variables in how easy they will be to sharpen can potentially be off-putting. For that reason I'd prefer 154 CM steel blades from some brands: because it tends to be used for better knives of some brands than D2 and is much easier to sharpen.

For American companies it comes down to oversight as much as country of origin. Spyderco (who are allergic to D2) can get a decent knife made anywhere, but most big US knife producers have a problem with quality control in their Chinese made knives. That said, I'm all in for a cryo D2 knife like the Off-Grid Knives Alpha Dog, any D2 by Ka-Bar, or a lot of low production knife makers; and all that D2 CPM by Benchmade.
 
SwissHeritageCo said:
I've abused the hell out of it, cutting against rocky dirt, cutting roofs off of concrete, old sandy wood etc. If it's chipped it must have been on a micro level because it's been sharpened out in 5 minutes flat.

I do change the geometry to a beautiful hand honed convex, which I'm sure has helped.. but it's still a thin hard edge clocked at 62hrc (again, D2).

As a budget chinese steel, I welcome it. While I deeply appreciate $500 folders and the craftsmanship/tolerances involved... there is something to say about a cheap affordable tool you can use and abuse without worry, especially when it cleans back up so easily.

Most of my tool appreciation comes from usage and function, and unless I become a millionaire I doubt I will ever be able to use a $500 knife like I would a sub $75 knife.
Click to expand...

I agree with some of this. While it does vary, Chinese D2 just doesn't seem to give me all that much over 9Cr18Mov, N690, 14C28N, Nitro-V, 154CM, etc. on edge retention. Of course, all of those steels are more stainless (especially the first three).

So the way I look at it, D2 comes with a tradeoff. The corrosion resistance is low enough to make it a three-season steel for me. (Stretches of 90F with 90% humidity means sweat and my sweat will spot D2.) So when D2 is up against any of those other choices for carry, I have to ask what I'd be getting for the trade. In theory, the answer should be "much better edge retention" and that's been the rub with Chinese D2.

BTW, a particularly good example of D2 with that convex edge might be making up the difference. How far out do you take it on grit?
 
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