File grinding a bevel post heat treat?

C

Casey K

Joined
Jun 8, 2016
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2
TLDR - Can a new Nicholson file cut heat treated O1 steel?

The Long - Hi! I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. I'm fairly newbish at knifemaking. I've found that a few good books and some dedicated Googling have been able to answer most of my questions, but I'm really stumped on this one. I've made a couple of hard use / outdoor type knives using a filing jig to put the bevels in. These have been either 1/8 inch or .18 inch thick, so I put the bevels in before heat treat.

Next up I'm interested in making a kitchen knife. Everything I've ready indicates that a) 3/32 thickness is a good stock thickness to use and b) that's so thin that you are better off putting the bevel in after heat treat. That seems reasonable, but this advice seems to be given on the assumption that the bevel will be put in with a belt sander. I don't have one, and I don't have an interest in getting one.

So my question is, is it possible to put the bevel into O1 after its been heat treated?

I plan on using this steel, and the file I use is a new Nicholson.
 
Its possible. Yes. Should you do it... ehh maybe not. There is a good chance you could file off the heat treatment. Leaving a soft knife. I would always recommend all shaping is done before hand.
 
Not sure about grinding off the heat treat as lots of folks do all bevel grinding post heat treat. The problem is most of us that do that have belt grinders. Your probably going to find it tough going trying to file post heat treat as the file isn't much harder than the knife. Just make sure your bevels are even and you should be fine and can always get any bow out after the quench.
 
I looked at the website and unless I missed a couple of words, in no way does that listing indicate that it has been pre heat treated.

I've also worked on an entire sword from O1 with a Nicholson file and I can tell you that it is not that hard as long as you put time into it. You won't be removing a lot of material per stroke but do it enough and you will get what you want. If you accidentally heat it past critical, it will harden up as it cools in the air. It won't achieve maximum hardness but without some sort of tempering, you will find it extremely difficult to work with by hand.

Just make sure you are using the file properly.
 
Ducksandcuse said:
Its possible. Yes. Should you do it... ehh maybe not. There is a good chance you could file off the heat treatment. Leaving a soft knife. I would always recommend all shaping is done before hand.
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That's a new one. How do you file off the heat treatment?
 
David Stifle said:
That's a new one. How do you file off the heat treatment?
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Yeah I thought the same thing.

There is no way you will file off the heat treatment if a halfway decent HT was performed. Maybe some extremely shallow case hardening or something.

Use a hard backing and some sandpaper and a tub of elbow grease :) Builds character.
 
Thanks to everyone that commented. Sounds like post-heat treat should be possible. I'll be testing it out by applying HT to a coupon before going full-hog.

duurza said:
I looked at the website and unless I missed a couple of words, in no way does that listing indicate that it has been pre heat treated.
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Sorry for the confusion. Its not pre heat treated. I'll be doing that myself.

Maelstrom78 said:
Use a hard backing and some sandpaper and a tub of elbow grease :) Builds character.
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That's literally 80% of the reason I got into knife making. I grew up in a blue collar household, thought I was going to be an engineer who worked with his hands all day like his dad. Then somehow I ended up going to grad school and working behind a keyboard all day. Realized I was looking for a productive way to get my hands dirty, build something concrete, and go to bed a little big sore.
 
Depends on how hard your steel is post HT. Many good files are 65HRC+. If you temper O1 for 60-61, then it is possible, just not ideal, as you'll put lots and lots of wear on the file. Some files are only 63HRC, and if you've tempered the O1 for 63HRC, you won't be able to file it. Files just aren't the best tool for removing 60HRC+ steel. Abrasives are much, much better for bevel shaping post HT.
 
Maelstrom78 said:
Yeah I thought the same thing.

There is no way you will file off the heat treatment if a halfway decent HT was performed. Maybe some extremely shallow case hardening or something.

Use a hard backing and some sandpaper and a tub of elbow grease :) Builds character.
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I was thinking he may overheat the steel. If using power tools
 
samuraistuart said:
Depends on how hard your steel is post HT. Many good files are 65HRC+. If you temper O1 for 60-61, then it is possible, just not ideal, as you'll put lots and lots of wear on the file. Some files are only 63HRC, and if you've tempered the O1 for 63HRC, you won't be able to file it. Files just aren't the best tool for removing 60HRC+ steel. Abrasives are much, much better for bevel shaping post HT.
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Yes , I think that he will ruin new file on one knife . I have Pferd Corinox file which are 70 Hrc and I dont think that they will last long if I try to file steel on around 60 Rockwell ......
 
I'm a newbie hoping somebody will answer this: why not take the bevel down to about 0.03-0.04" at the edge before heat treat, then after temper use hard backed sandpaper to finish the bevels? Surely he can take out any lateral warps after HT out by straightening the hot blade during tempering? Trying to learn, here, thanks! :)
 
milkbaby said:
I'm a newbie hoping somebody will answer this: why not take the bevel down to about 0.03-0.04" at the edge before heat treat, then after temper use hard backed sandpaper to finish the bevels? Surely he can take out any lateral warps after HT out by straightening the hot blade during tempering? Trying to learn, here, thanks! :)
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Because average life expectancy for most people is only 70-75 years.
 
If you were dead set on some serious metal removal by hand POST heat treat I would probably try something like an atoma diamond plate. Still though, Kuraki makes an excellent point :)

Your best bet if you are using only hand tools is to use a air hardening steel like AEBL, then you can pretty safely take it down to almost final dimensions Before heat treat and just finish sand a few thousandths off after heat treat.
 
kuraki said:
Because average life expectancy for most people is only 70-75 years.
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But I plan to live forever! :D

But seriously... thanks for the reality check. The first piece of equipment I bought for making knives was a lowly 1x30 belt sander. Now, even though I do hacksaw everything by hand, I can't imagine putting in the bevels by hand tools... spoiled I guess.
 
Here is a good 2-3 hrs of arm exercise for you. Go to truegrit.com, get a couple of 80 & 120 grit 2x72 belts Merit Value Ceramic brand. Cut each belt into 6x 12" long then use box cutter to split each section (length wise) into 2x 1x12". Clamp/tie a piece to a piece of hardwood/file. Start with 80 grit, you can sand away hardened 1095/O1/D2/S30V/etc.. at whatever hardness thrown at you.

I probably can put a near zero ffg on 1/8" O1 63+rc 4" blade in about 1 hr via this way and probably wear out less than a whole 80 grit belt. Easier if you clamp the blade down onto a work surface, lean down with ceramic/belt file, pour water to rinse and keep blade cool. Put on new belt section as soon as you feel the current one no longer cut aggressively - will save time and avoid unwanted burnish+heat.

btw - when edge about 0.02-0.03" thick, walk up to higher grit - keep erase coarse grit scratches until final pre-sharpening thickness. Don't zero (aka apexed the edge with very coarse grit - impacts will crack edge, usually show up later when sharpening - often observed as chip out during sharpening).
 
milkbaby said:
But I plan to live forever! :D

But seriously... thanks for the reality check. The first piece of equipment I bought for making knives was a lowly 1x30 belt sander. Now, even though I do hacksaw everything by hand, I can't imagine putting in the bevels by hand tools... spoiled I guess.
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Oh, you can do it with a file rather quickly, before heat treat. It's sanding .040" after heat treat, or trying to file after heat treat, that would really wear a guy down. If you run something on your 1x30 to 120 grit, your deepest scratches are likely .004" deep given the particle size of that grit. You have to bring the entire plane down to that level with hand sanding to remove that scratch, and we do that every day, but it's maybe 10 to 30 minutes of work depending on the paper you have, wear resistance of the material, etc. Multiply that by 10 to get down .040" and you'll need one of those tendonitis bands.
 
milkbaby said:
But I plan to live forever! :D

But seriously... thanks for the reality check. The first piece of equipment I bought for making knives was a lowly 1x30 belt sander. Now, even though I do hacksaw everything by hand, I can't imagine putting in the bevels by hand tools... spoiled I guess.
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Well , in that case you can make knife from any steel , even from HSS :D Now seriously, these two knife I grind with this grind stone with hand on file jig . One is M2 Steel and around 64 Hrc and another one is M35 HSS steel and 67 Hrc :D
15x35hk.jpg

fyzb4y.jpg

4m1xt.jpg
 
bluntcut said:
Here is a good 2-3 hrs of arm exercise for you. Go to truegrit.com, get a couple of 80 & 120 grit 2x72 belts Merit Value Ceramic brand. Cut each belt into 6x 12" long then use box cutter to split each section (length wise) into 2x 1x12". Clamp/tie a piece to a piece of hardwood/file. Start with 80 grit, you can sand away hardened 1095/O1/D2/S30V/etc.. at whatever hardness thrown at you.

I probably can put a near zero ffg on 1/8" O1 63+rc 4" blade in about 1 hr via this way and probably wear out less than a whole 80 grit belt. Easier if you clamp the blade down onto a work surface, lean down with ceramic/belt file, pour water to rinse and keep blade cool. Put on new belt section as soon as you feel the current one no longer cut aggressively - will save time and avoid unwanted burnish+heat.

btw - when edge about 0.02-0.03" thick, walk up to higher grit - keep erase coarse grit scratches until final pre-sharpening thickness. Don't zero (aka apexed the edge with very coarse grit - impacts will crack edge, usually show up later when sharpening - often observed as chip out during sharpening).
Click to expand...

Something like this :)

a3o9hh.jpg

152gv80.jpg
 
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