finishing stones

O

outline

Joined
Aug 18, 2004
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im looking for a stone that will give that scary sharp super polished edge and im not sure which ones to get. im stuck between a spyderco ultrafine hone which doesnt dish out and is a little cheaper but still gives a good edge from what iv read before, or an 8000 grit waterstone which is a finer grit and i think it cuts faster.
 
I'd go with the Spyderco ultra-fine, and also get ahold of a flat steel for a final hone to remove the wire edge and to re-align the edge.
 
An 8000 grit waterstone would be perfect if you're experienced at holding the knife at a consistent angle as you use it. Most of the people on the forum aren't really familiar with truly sharp edges. Most of them think knives come sharp from the factory but they arrive only as sharp as a 180 or 220 grit belt on a belt grinder will achieve and, for me, that's pretty crude.

Many of them use Sharpmakers which is really a pair of steels. The Sharpmaker is good for straigtening a deformed edge but it would be a serious challenge to actually grind bevels with one. Not impossible, of course, but a whole lot of work on a tool which wasn't designed for the purpose. If you can get the skill to use waterstones, they will do it all.

Those who are familiar with Japanese kitchen cutlery and other Japanese cutting tools understand what sharpness really is and the waterstone is an almost universal tool for achieving it. Yes, I've tested everything on the market and I do all my knives by hand with waterstones. I use machinery to sharpen other people's knives. Personally I use a 2000 grit medium and an 8000 grit finishing stone for my knives. If I need to grind new bevels I use a coarse stone of around 240 grit. It takes very little time with the 2000 to smooth out the work done by the coarse stone.

I have loads of experience with the Edgepro (perhaps 4,000 or 5,000 sharpenings) and I think it's a good option for beginners. I found it hard to avoid scratching the sides of the blades with the system so I quit using it and I do my own knives by hand with waterstones. If it weren't for the scratching, I'd use the Edgepro up to 3000 grit and then move to the waterstones because it is very fast and foolproof. But I enjoy hand sharpening my knives and they are as sharp as I want them to be. But beware, sharpening by hand with waterstones is a skill and isn't a skill that's learned in 10 minutes. You'll have to invest some time before you get good results.

There was talk above about feeling the burrs and I think it is critical to keep in touch with the burr throughout the sharpening process. It is the best way to see how effective your work is and at what stage in the process it is. There are a number of ways to do this. My preference is to put the edge to my thumbnail at an angle in both directions. That allows me to feel which side has the burr and how large it is, and how consistent the burr is along the length of the edge. Use whatever works for you. By the time you finish with the 8000 grit stone, there won't be much burr left. If you go ahead to a 12,000 grit waterstone, the burr will be virtually gone. Once you have sharpened away the burr, the edge will be polished and about as sharp as is possible at the bevel angle selected. This is true, of course, only if you have developed the skill to hold the blade consistently throughout the process. Good luck and sorry for the rambling post.
 
I use the Spyderco benchstones. My question is, if I do one stroke each side, can I still achieve an optimal edge?
 
That would depend on the condition of the edge. If a light swipe on each side turns the burr to the opposite side, then you are ready for the next finer stone or you're finished.
 
some sources in this thread http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321266
I have a shapton pro 15000 that I like (more like a strop at that grit)

Haven't tried any of the coarser Shaptons or their other lines so don't have anything to compare it to. My current favorite is the aoto blue stone (1000-3000) comes in natural or man made (this is made from bits of natural blue stones since good large natural ones are becoming scarce). Would like to try some of the natural finish stones but can't afford to. One member (HoB) liked the 10000 grit Nanaiwa from hidatool and the Nonpariel Blue (Japan woodworker also carries this along with a Mountain/Kitayama 12000 that I've seen people mention favorably... blade gallery has the 8000 grit)

Want to see a $15,000 stone (well 1.5 million yen)? click the pic of the Okudo Suita on this page http://shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/en/shop_e/toishi_e.html# and look at the first stone in the window that pops up. Probably only expert (and rich) sword polishers would buy something like that!
 
Blades_two.

I have great respect for people that sharpen by hand the old fashion way.

Question. You obviously like the EdgePro and I wonder if you have tried using PSA backed paper stuck to EdgePro blanks. Various papers are available up to approx 12,000 grit and I am very happy with the results.

The papers are made by 3M and are very high quality.
 
Pardon me if this is OT, but I have had good luck finishing with 1200 grit open coat sandpaper on a mouse pad, followed by stropping on cardboard. Once sharp, the stropping usually is all that is required.
 
by the way im sorry about asking so many sharpening questions, its just i want to make sure i explore my options before i buy something. thanx for all ur help guys
 
Nosmo, I've never tried the tapes. I assume they would work fine, though. I do like the Edgepro and recommend it without hesitation. Like I said, I'd use it if I didn't have to fight the scratching problem all the time.

Outline, sandpaper isn't the same thing. Waterstones have the abrasive in a water soluble matrix. Using it produces a paste on the surface of the stone and it is that paste that does the grinding. The paste is, in turn, on a hard flat surface so that contributes to a better edge than anything with resiliency. The major problem with strops and boards with sandpaper is that resiliency.

Many years ago when I was a bookbinder I used to use a board with 600 grit sandpaper on one side and cowhide on the other. I would touch up my knives constantly using this tool just like a chef would touch up a knife with a steel. It worked fine. But not as well waterstones. The waterstones are hard and flat so you get a really keen edge that's consistent along the length of the blade. Waterstones simply weren't available back then. If they were, I would have traded in my sandpaper right away.
 
As you may know, you can't get by with only an ultrafine hone. Most people could get by with a medium-fine hone, like an India Stone, although it is a big waste of time to do all your work with any one grit.

Assuming that you use other hones to profile your edge you can put nice finish edges on your blade with either the ceramic or the water hone you mention. The water hone will cut faster than the ceramic. For me the ceramic will leave a finer edge. The water stones are particularly good when you sharpen a flat zero-bevel blade like a chisel. In that case you are sort of puting a flat polish on the entire blade bevel. To do this you need to cut fairly fast even with your finest grit. On knives you usually just put on a narrow micro-bevel with your finest hone. I find that the ceramic does a better job of that than the water stone. I may need to move up to something finer than an 8000 grit water stone which may change my mind.
 
The abrasive in my waterstones is ceramic. I think the ones that use aluminum oxide as an abrasive work about the same, they just wear faster because they need a softer water soluble matrix and, of course, they are cheaper.

8000 grit is fine enough for sushi knives that need to cut raw fish thin enough that the slices are transparent. It is certainly fine enough for sporting knives. It will put a mirror polish on the bevels. I have a 12,000 grit but rarely use it. The difference really isn't noticeable. Most sushi chefs use 6000 grit as a finishing stone and it does about the same as the 8000 grit. I'm not sure the grit of the finishing stone is that important. The flatness of the stone and the quickness with which it develops a slurry are really more important, I think.

The skill of the sharpener is probably the most important thing.
 
Blades_Two said:
Outline, sandpaper isn't the same thing. Waterstones have the abrasive in a water soluble matrix. Using it produces a paste on the surface of the stone and it is that paste that does the grinding. The paste is, in turn, on a hard flat surface so that contributes to a better edge than anything with resiliency. The major problem with strops and boards with sandpaper is that resiliency.
Click to expand...

Well, not really water soluble or they would dissolve when you soaked them. The abrasive grains are bonded together in a friable matrix (clay or silica for natural stones, clay or ceramic for man made, though I hear that the Belgian waterstones are tiny garnets in schist). The matrix breaks more easily than the abrasive so the surface grains remain sharp. Letting the slurry thicken up lets the more rounded grains roll around between the stone and the blade leaving shallower scratch patterns (as if the grit gets finer as you go).

Seems to me that the very fine Shapton pro and the hard ceramic waterstones work better if you don't use a nagura or try to get a slurry, since it is mostly metal particles that may occasionally ball up and make your blade bounce, so they seem best kept fairly clean. It also seems like a harder stone produces a better edge on softer metal and a soft stone on harder metal (maybe the harder stone helps keep the edge geometry on softer steel and the soft stone maybe produces a micro convex edge on the harder steel???). It sort of seems like different steels like different stones, and when they like each other, honing goes fast and gives great results. If they don't like each other, then it is a bit more work.

BTW, diamond paste on a cast iron plate seems to work pretty well too, and you can go to rediculous grits like 60,000, which is a lot finer than an EZ-lap or DMT, but paste sure is messy (and probably not worth it unless you are sharpening microtome blades) :rolleyes:

I'm kind of experimenting with different hand methods (insanity born of insatiable curiosity?) but haven't hit on a favorite method since each have their good points and some work better in different situations, but for most things I go up to 1200 on a DMT than go to a 2-6000 grit waterstone.

Oh, someone mentioned this place in an earlier thread: http://www.handamerican.com/products.html Strop lovers could go crazy there. :)
 
Blades_Two said:
An 8000 grit waterstone would be perfect if you're experienced at holding the knife at a consistent angle as you use it. Most of the people on the forum aren't really familiar with truly sharp edges. Most of them think knives come sharp from the factory but they arrive only as sharp as a 180 or 220 grit belt on a belt grinder will achieve and, for me, that's pretty crude.
Click to expand...
huh? aside from some of the newer or more inexperienced members, i'd say MOST of the people on this forum are VERY familiar with "truly sharp edges". further, if i received a knife with anything akin to a 180 or 220 grit sharpening, i'd fire that knife right back at the manufacturer. of course, all of my knives are factory-made production.

Blades_Two said:
Many of them use Sharpmakers which is really a pair of steels. The Sharpmaker is good for straigtening a deformed edge but it would be a serious challenge to actually grind bevels with one. Not impossible, of course, but a whole lot of work on a tool which wasn't designed for the purpose. If you can get the skill to use waterstones, they will do it all.
Click to expand...
woah... you've been misinformed. the Sharpmaker is in fact a proper sharpening system, and quite a ways off from a steel. it has its pitfalls, and to do some decent reprofiling you will need the diamond sticks to be sure. however, it is an extremely versatile tool and does much more than steel (if at all), as evidenced by the thousands of owners who use it to sharpen their edged tools daily.

i suspect you may be exercising some hyperbole in your claims, but let's give the forum users (and knife enthusiasts at large) a little more credit!

abe m.
 
The first quote deals with a comment I made concerning posts that praise factory sharpening. I have never seen a knife come from a factory or a belt grinder that I would consider properly sharpened. That's the source of that opinion. Yes, I do have a belt grinder and I have sharpened thousands of knives with it. It represents a good start to the sharpening process but one that is overly agressive in my opinion. It is a matter of degree. What you consider properly sharpened and what I consider properly sharpened are simply two different things. It's just a matter of degree.

I Also have a Sharpmaker. Actually, I have two of them. I have tested them thoroughly and taught others to use them. I like them as a quick maintenance tool and I recommend them but their capabilites are closer to that of a steel than stones in my opinion. If one were to add the diamond rods to the system, then I would view it as a more useful system. I stand by what I said. I was trying to talk about finishing stones, not Sharpmakers.
 
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