First time poster - Bob Kramer knives.

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FriedMule

Joined
Apr 11, 2023
Messages
1
(Warning self-taught "English" below!! :)

So totally new to this forum and also to the knife hobby, I have been some time on Reddit, but it felt like both Western knifes and "gasp" stainless steel was what you buy if you don't care.
I.e. was it almost practically impossible to get info about Zwilling's Kramer knives, because people did not like them at all... "buy a sentuko, get a xxx instead and so on, and maybe are they right
but I have tried to hold several with the straight handle "broom stick" and I have tried to hold a Kramer, and it was like being wished welcome by a good friend, the knife automatically
became a part of me and my arm, I have never felt any knife like that, so to get told that "Kramer is junk" even after my explanation about my experience, and my lack of fascination for the straight Asian handle.

LOL also when I began to ask about stainless was it as if I had told everybody I dishwash my knifes or used a junk drawer for my pile of knives. I do just know myself and I can easily forget a knife for hours, and to be honest do I like the shiny look more than the patina so many loves. :)

Right now do I own a Zwilling Kramer 10" stainless knife and have a little new on the way, a 6" Zwilling Kramer stainless steel model.
I have been so lucky to get both for about $200 each, ignoring the advice to not buy them because it was way too expensive and a Sentuko would make me a lot happier.

This is going to be my last Kramer knife because of the price and I hope on help later on to get other cheaper knife to my collection.

So this was my confession, hope you forgive me. :)
 
Welcome to BF.
Sounds to me like you got hammered out there.

A couple of points-
1. It's SANTOKU, not Sentuko.
2. The traditional Japanese handle is called Wa-handle. Not broom stick, as broom stick handles are round. Wa handles are octagonal, hexagonal or oval.
2. Kramer has a unique profile, some folks love it, others hate it. But if that works for you, no problems.
Zwilling offers the licensed Kramer line and it's a good way to get into Kramers without the high price tag.
Zwilling's Kramer knives are made in their Seki Japan factories, along with ther Miyabi line. I would put their craftsmanship
and steel way better than the many unknown brand Chinese knives on the market many with questionable steels.
3. 99% of Gyutos (Western style chef knives) in use in Japan are Western handled. That's because when the first European chef's knife
(probably a Sabatier) arrived in Japan in the mid 1800s that design became the default standard. A Gyuto is Western handled/full tang
by default. A few decades ago Western folks became enamored with the traditional single bevel Yanagiba amd Deba knives used by Sushi chefs. This spawned
the Wa-Gyuto, a double bevel chef knife with a partial tang in a traditional wood handle, and the market for these is basically all outside of Japan.
Apart from the image thing, there is a distinct weight difference between a Western handle and Wa handle in that in the former, the weight is more evenly spread
throughout the length, whereas in the latter the weight tilts slighty more forward. This is due to the partial vs full tang.
4. Along with the fixation on the Wa-handle comes the fixation on Carbon steels. There are arguments that go either way but in the end it's personal preference.
Even Zwilling offers the choice of a Carbon steel or a Powder Stainless steel. Considering that Zwillig offers one of the best Stainless steels for the Kramer and
Miyabi lines, I don't think there's any issue.

So as far as I can see, there's nothing for you to "confess". A kitchen knife is a tool and like all tools, the one the fits your hand best is the ideal.
 
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Stainless is fine, it's a sensible option for a lot of people.
I have handled Kramer knives, the carbon steel ones. Interesting and it could take a great edge.
Certainly if it is your preference, go with it.
 
Those knives look great to me and I think quality stainless is an excellent choice for kitchen knives. I don't hear much about the taste transfer from carbon steel used on some more acidic foods but it is real and pretty terrible to me, chef's will mention it occasionally. For most people stainless will not only perform just as well as high carbon steel but the ease of maintenance is more than enough reason to go that way.
 
FriedMule, Welcome to Bladeforums!!

If the knife fits your hand and does the job you ask of it, I'd say it is the right tool for the job. Your own experience is more important than anyone else's opinion. The internet is full of self appointed experts with their own biases & prejudices, sometimes limited by their budget, that may not fit your situation. As the saying goes, "You do you!"

Happy hunting on your knife collecting journey.
 
FriedMule, Welcome! I also wondered about the stainless steel/carbon steel? I have been watching a LOT of videos on You Tube about Japanese restaurants , and found it amazing how much prep work they do on a daily basis. From cutting up cabbage, green onions, regular onions, mushrooms, daikon, carrots, to trimming chicken, some whole chickens, some parts and cutting up pork loins. I was surprised at how many were using Western/European shaped chef knives. A good friend explained about the Gyutos that KenHash explained above. Seem that a good percentage were using stainless steel knives, although some carbon steel knives also showed up. Chinese style restaurants in Japan seemed to use Chinese style cleavers, and those often seemed to have round handles. Seems strange to me that they SME (Subject Matter Experts) are so convinced about what kind of knives and what kind of steel must be used, when the people who do it for a living, and more than likely prep more food on a weekly basis that the SME's do in a year do not seem to share the same opinions? I am sure economics play a part, as some of these Japanese made Gyutos are pretty expensive. As stated above, what works for you, is what is important. John
 
thebrain said:
I don't hear much about the taste transfer from carbon steel used on some more acidic foods but it is real and pretty terrible to me, chef's will mention it occasionally.
Click to expand...
From my understanding, it has to do with the purity of the iron used in making the steel. Sulfur and phosphorus cannot be removed from iron, so ore that contains it is undesirable for kitchen knives.
The sulfur reacts with the acid, giving the smell and flavor. This is why onions are particularly bad for those knives.
It's not something I've found with more expensive knives.
 
It does seem to me that the dirty steels do have more of a problem with acidic foods. After a patina is formed on carbon steel much of the problem will go away, but not all steel is equal and neither are foods. I had to give up on a carbon Robert Herder for segmenting grapefruit.
 
John A. Larsen said:
Seems strange to me that they SME (Subject Matter Experts) are so convinced about what kind of knives and what kind of steel must be used, when the people who do it for a living, and more than likely prep more food on a weekly basis that the SME's do in a year do not seem to share the same opinions?
Click to expand...
Not strange at all. This is a primary difference between collectors and practitioners.
 
FriedMule said:
(Warning self-taught "English" below!! :)

So totally new to this forum and also to the knife hobby, I have been some time on Reddit, but it felt like both Western knifes and "gasp" stainless steel was what you buy if you don't care.
I.e. was it almost practically impossible to get info about Zwilling's Kramer knives, because people did not like them at all... "buy a sentuko, get a xxx instead and so on, and maybe are they right
but I have tried to hold several with the straight handle "broom stick" and I have tried to hold a Kramer, and it was like being wished welcome by a good friend, the knife automatically
became a part of me and my arm, I have never felt any knife like that, so to get told that "Kramer is junk" even after my explanation about my experience, and my lack of fascination for the straight Asian handle.

LOL also when I began to ask about stainless was it as if I had told everybody I dishwash my knifes or used a junk drawer for my pile of knives. I do just know myself and I can easily forget a knife for hours, and to be honest do I like the shiny look more than the patina so many loves. :)

Right now do I own a Zwilling Kramer 10" stainless knife and have a little new on the way, a 6" Zwilling Kramer stainless steel model.
I have been so lucky to get both for about $200 each, ignoring the advice to not buy them because it was way too expensive and a Sentuko would make me a lot happier.

This is going to be my last Kramer knife because of the price and I hope on help later on to get other cheaper knife to my collection.

So this was my confession, hope you forgive me. :)
Click to expand...
Carbon steel is great, but other than aesthetics there isn't any major advantages of using carbon steel in a chefs knife that you can't get in a stainless steel. I personally would love a Kramer designed knife, but they are a bit outside of my price range.
 
John A. Larsen said:
FriedMule, Welcome! I also wondered about the stainless steel/carbon steel? I have been watching a LOT of videos on You Tube about Japanese restaurants , and found it amazing how much prep work they do on a daily basis. From cutting up cabbage, green onions, regular onions, mushrooms, daikon, carrots, to trimming chicken, some whole chickens, some parts and cutting up pork loins. I was surprised at how many were using Western/European shaped chef knives. A good friend explained about the Gyutos that KenHash explained above. Seem that a good percentage were using stainless steel knives, although some carbon steel knives also showed up. Chinese style restaurants in Japan seemed to use Chinese style cleavers, and those often seemed to have round handles. Seems strange to me that they SME (Subject Matter Experts) are so convinced about what kind of knives and what kind of steel must be used, when the people who do it for a living, and more than likely prep more food on a weekly basis that the SME's do in a year do not seem to share the same opinions? I am sure economics play a part, as some of these Japanese made Gyutos are pretty expensive. As stated above, what works for you, is what is important. John
Click to expand...
As someone who actually works in a restaurant I can tell you that the people using the knives often have no say in what knives they use especially for large chain stores. The knives I use at work are absolutely terrible, the handle has terrible ergonomics, the geometry is way too blunt, and the heat treat is way too soft but my employer keeps replacing them with identical knives every 6 months or so at the expense of my joints(I literally have less wrist pain after a day of swinging a 4 pound hammer). Victorinox and Dexter Russell both make good knives that are pretty common in commercial kitchens, but they wouldn't necessarily be my choice of work knife if I was spending my own money on the knives I use.
 
I bought a set of the stainless Kramers about 10 years ago, maybe less. My wife was cooking for two, and she works full-time, so they got light to moderate use for about 8 years before I bought a new set of Miyabis to apologize for one thing or another. She was careful with them and didn't misuse them but they got used with great enthusiasm!

They fit both my average sized hands and her small hands very well. We both liked using them a lot.

The steel kicked butt, seriously. I love to sharpen, so I was constantly checking them to see if I had an excuse to break out the stones and get them shaving sharp. The heaviest use blades didn't need more than honing on a ceramic rod more than two or three times a year to keep them hair-popping sharp, all the time. My Messermeister 12" ceramic rod is fairly aggressive, but I only used light pressure and those blades would go for months with nothing more. I was disappointed I didn't get to sharpen them more! I found the blades impressive, even at the healthy price.

The handles on these bottom-of-the-line Kramer/Zwillings were some semi-soft material that was a pain to keep clean, and didn't hold up so well. The handle material was a poor choice for us, it felt cheap compared to everything else about the knives. The seams at the bolsters were visible and you could feel a few of them as well. The carbon steel knives used a firm laminate material which is a lot more appropriate to the price range!

Overall, after using both the stainless Kramer/Zwilling and Miyabi Artisans, we both found the blades as close to perfect for our use as we could tell. Both lines were thin and cut very smoothly and easily, even on tough vegetables the size of tree branches. The Kramer's handles were a little more ergonomic for us, but the Miyabis were a close second.

The classy Miyabis were my favorite over the stainless Kramers, mostly due to the handle materials. Both lines were very formidable tools for home use, with the Miyabis offering killer performance for a slightly lower price than the Kramers, where you need to pay for the carbon blades to get a better handle material, and a lot of home cooks don't want to deal with carbon when stainless performs so well.
 
Kramer Zwilling carbon steel knives are excellent slicers. All of them. Even their nominal Chef’s Knife, which is a short home use 8”. Super thin edges, easy to hone, but don’t hit a bone with one because it will chip.

I have the 5” utility knife. A kitchen floor drop broke the tip. Now it’s 4 3/4” after reprofiling,
 
I am one of those who loves Kramer knives. His custom ones are priced very high. I chose Zwilling's Kramer's carbon steel ones. They are made in Japan and are of excellent quality.
IMGP70041000.JPG
 
To me, Bob Kramer helps me understand my own very American preferences in kitchen knife design: a search for cultural fusion between East and West. His contributions to Shun helped them develop a bridge, and many of us feel very much at home with his designs. I've never purchased one, but if I did, it would be his Meiji.
 
The 8” Kramer has a polarizing profile that works for some but not for others, it really depends on your prefered cutting technique and how tall compared to your counter you are. The 10” has a better profile that works for more people.

The Japanese style (WA) handles are really designed to be used in a pinch grip where the handle is just a counter balance basically, when held like that the handles work well giving you on average a lighter over all knife that is also a bit more blade heavy which works well when you need to cut a lot and do it fast. In hammer/racket grip WA handles don’t work well for most people.

In any case if the knife is comfortable for you, that is all that matters. All steels in Kramer Zwilling lines are done well and are good steels, carbon is 52100, FC61 is AEB-L equivalent and SG2 used in Kramer stainless Damascus is a good PM steel too.
 
To the OP, welcome! I made Culinary knives & sharpen for some 20 years. I loved making & interactions with my customers.. Unfortunately I developed Asthma and had to stop all of it even wearing a respirator. Buy what you like & what works for you & yours! As others have said, to many experts that tell you what you need! I preferred stainless by a long shot. I live & my shop in my garage is near the Ocean, carbon steel requires a lot of maintenance! I had carbon ruined just sitting in shop as rain storms brought in salt air. The other issue is experts telling you that you need a 10” Blah Blah! I think they are trying to compensate for something! A 8” or even a 7” is fine for most home cooking for 2-4 people. A 7” Santoku is the most common knife in the home kitchens of Japan. Buy what you like & enjoy!
 
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