Fjord hiker question

rodriguez7

rodriguez7

Gila wilderness knife works
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
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I'm interested in this design, have you tested the z-wear yet, what hardness are you running it, and how thin did you take down the edge? How hard have you tested it, if you have? Thanks hunter. Looks like it would be a good design for a hunting blade.
 
I have a batch of Fjord hikers at HT right now in Z wear. This is the first batch that I will be doing in this steel and I have not had a chance to test it yet but I've done very, very extensive research on the HT protocol for this steel. I've decided to run it in the 60-61 range and avoid the secondary hardening curve that occurs at 62. Secondary hardening results from the precipitation of tungsten carbides. This precipitation creates very hard carbides but actually reduces the hardness of the matrix which can be detrimental to the ability to hold a thin edge, and I always take my edges as thin as possible.

In the 60-61 range, the steel will have a very strong matrix and have lots of carbide formation for wear resistance. From what the metallurgists at Zapp told me, at 61, Z wear will be as tough at 3V but have greater wear resistance. I'm going to have 2 of them run at 62-63 and test the secondary hardening bump but from all the info I've gathered, 61 is looking like the sweet spot for this steel.

I'm very excited to finally test out z wear as I think it will be an upgrade to 3V in smaller knives. And at the very worst, it will be about the same as 3V.
 
Nice to see more makers considering the actual impact of the secondary hardening hump on performance, other than just assuming either:
1. higher RC = better and/or
2. more carbide = better.
 
Camber said:
Nice to see more makers considering the actual impact of the secondary hardening hump on performance, other than just assuming either:
1. higher RC = better and/or
2. more carbide = better.
Click to expand...

The secondary hardening bump really through me for a loop. I know several guys running their Z wear/PD1 at 62-63 and are happy with it but when I talked to the metallurgists they seemed pretty set that in a knife, secondary hardening is not what you want. I will be able to make a final judgement call after extensive testing but for now, at least theoretically, this steel should preform best before secondary hardening. The metallurgist at Zapp was very confident that at lest in smaller blades, Z wear would be better than 3V when run at the same hardness. 3V is likely still superior for bigger blades though due to its lower carbon content.

I'm mainly trying to bridge the gap between 3V and the M4 and up class for mid sized blades and get the perfect balance between toughness, strength, and wear resistance. As of now PD1/Zwear, and Vanadis 4E are looking extremely promising and based on reports from other makers I will likely be switching to one or the other as a replacement for 3V in mid sized knives.

In the near future I'm planning on sticking with
10V and M390 for slicing knives
Zwear/PD1 or V4E for mid sized knives/ knives that see harder use
3V for very large hard use knives
52100 for machetes and big choppers and L6 or 80CRV2 for axes

I'm also going to toy with some S7 machetes this summer....
 
From my admittedly pretty limited knowledge I too agree that the secondary hardening hump is to be avoided. Glad to see you experimenting with it though and looking forward to what you find out.

I'm a chopper fanatic, so looking forward to the large heavy blades as well. I am thinking about trying to build a machete myself out of 15n20 or S7 this summer...we'll see. I always have lots of plans. But your S7 machetes should work well...what patterns will you do?

And L6 in an axe sounds about perfect to me. I'd much prefer it to the 80CrV2. Despite it's promotion as 5160 on steroids I don't see what it offers that makes it better for impact tools.

I need to remember to send you the video I made too of using the Fell Beast I have.
 
Camber,

For the s7 machetes, I will just do my standard patterns for the most part but I'm also planning on doing a two handed machete. If you get around to building a machete of your own I'd love to see it.

L6 is, in my opinion, better than 80crv2 but its not always available in the right sizes. From what I've seen so far, 80crV2 is a great performer for big blades and I think it is similar to 5160 but with a little more edge holding.

send me over that video! :thumbup:
 
Im not into big blade choppers really, I usually just carry a tomahawk. But I am anxious to see some blades in vanadis 4e, thats the steel I have really wanted a custom in. But no one really uses it. A 4.5 inch outdoor hunting/ hard use knife would be nice to see. That class of steel, z-wear/pd-1 and vanadis are the ones that most interest me. Cant wait.
 
rodriguez7 said:
Im not into big blade choppers really, I usually just carry a tomahawk. But I am anxious to see some blades in vanadis 4e, thats the steel I have really wanted a custom in. But no one really uses it. A 4.5 inch outdoor hunting/ hard use knife would be nice to see. That class of steel, z-wear/pd-1 and vanadis are the ones that most interest me. Cant wait.
Click to expand...

The reason you haven't seen V4E is because its almost impossible to get. Bohler doesn't roll it in the size needed for knives. Last fall there was a .22 thick sheet they rolled floating around but I didn't have enough money to buy the entire sheet which was disgustingly expensive.

I'm still contacting Bohler about V4E and trying to convince them to roll it in knife friendly thicknessess. Makers and customers want it and I think they will eventually give in and start making it for us but we'll see. They are missing out on a market share currently.

And for the record, I think V4E will be the answer we have both been looking for in terms of bridging the gap between hard use and high wear. But I won't know for sure until I can get my hands on some and really test it, which could take a while....but not for lack of trying :grumpy:
 
How would V4E compare to cpm3v, cpm 10v, z-wear, pd-1, 52100? What size blade is it best suited to - smaller hunting knives as rodriguez mentions? I've never heard of it but it sounds awesome.
 
Currawong said:
How would V4E compare to cpm3v, cpm 10v, z-wear, pd-1, 52100? What size blade is it best suited to - smaller hunting knives as rodriguez mentions? I've never heard of it but it sounds awesome.
Click to expand...

V4E is a higher wear resistance steel that also has great toughness. At optimal hardness, which I think is probably right around 63, it will be slightly less tough than 3V at 60 but have much higher wear resistance. The high toughness will allow it to take a very thin edge and avoid chipping.

PD1/Zwear are in the same vein, higher carbide content than 3V while being close in toughness. I think the extra Vanadium that V4E has will make it better than PD1 or Zwear but I won't know until I can test them head to head.

Compared to 10V, V4E is significantly tougher but is not even in the same ballpark as 10V when it comes to wear resistance. (Few steels are)

And vs 52100, V4E is a better steel in almost every way .It tougher, harder, and has much more wear resistance but is very expensive.

V4E will be best in 4-8in knives that see hard use but need high edge retention. Survival type knives, hunting knives, camp knives, and bushcraft knives will all do great in V4E.
 
impact energy unnotched in joule

K890 at 60Rc is 105 j
K890 at 62Rc is 95 j
K490 at 62Rc is 80 j with the almost the same wear resistance as M4

http://www.bohler-edelstahl.com/files/K890DE.pdf
http://www.bohler-edelstahl.com/engl...les/K490DE.pdf


Uddeholm Vanadis 4E ( Crucible has now created cpm 4V with the same make-up)

at 58 Rc is 70j
at 60 Rc is 60j
at 62 Rc is 50j
at 64 Rc is 40j

http://www.uddeholm.com/files/PB_Udd...ra_english.pdf

See for comparison : http://corse76.altervista.org/col.php?noti2=resilienza
Have you ever looked into k490? seems like a good alternative to vanadis 4e. I just stumbled on this steel yesterday, I never really heard of it, and can only find limited information on it. Might be something to look into. Just not sure on price, or sheet availability.
 
rodriguez7 said:
impact energy unnotched in joule

K890 at 60Rc is 105 j
K890 at 62Rc is 95 j
K490 at 62Rc is 80 j with the almost the same wear resistance as M4

http://www.bohler-edelstahl.com/files/K890DE.pdf
http://www.bohler-edelstahl.com/engl...les/K490DE.pdf


Uddeholm Vanadis 4E ( Crucible has now created cpm 4V with the same make-up)

at 58 Rc is 70j
at 60 Rc is 60j
at 62 Rc is 50j
at 64 Rc is 40j

http://www.uddeholm.com/files/PB_Udd...ra_english.pdf

See for comparison : http://corse76.altervista.org/col.php?noti2=resilienza
Have you ever looked into k490? seems like a good alternative to vanadis 4e. I just stumbled on this steel yesterday, I never really heard of it, and can only find limited information on it. Might be something to look into. Just not sure on price, or sheet availability.
Click to expand...

Ill give the guys at Bohler a call and see what they have to say about k490. From the data sheet it looks extremely promising. However, I don't believe its possible that K490 could be tougher than Vanadis 4 while having all that extra tungsten. Ill be interested to hear what they have to say about those numbers. k490 more or less looks like a little brother to M4 with slightly less wear resistance and slightly fewer carbides, how it ends up with twice the toughness of M4 is a mystery to say the least.
I've often found that wear resistance=/= edge retention and charpy toughness =/= real world toughness.

Either way, I will be checking it out. If those numbers are accurate and there isn't some huge drawback that I'm missing, it looks like k490 is an incredible find. :thumbup:
 
No clue about those values, but it sounded interesting. Figured I would throw it up for you to check out.
 
What are the overall specs on the Fjord hiker?
Any chance of some in the near future?
 
The Fjord hiker has a 5in blade, 10in overall length and is .22 thick Zwear steel hardened to 61.

I will be making some of these before the summer is over. I'm working at my law job 3 days a week but still have off days and weekends to work so I'll have a couple of these ready soon.
 
New to the subforum and I'm wondering how I could have missed it and your work for so long? Very impressive stuff. Do you have any plans on using Nitro V for Fjord Hikers?
 
Creaky Bones said:
New to the subforum and I'm wondering how I could have missed it and your work for so long? Very impressive stuff. Do you have any plans on using Nitro V for Fjord Hikers?
Click to expand...

Welcome to the subform!

I will be sticking to high wear steels for the fjord hikers. If I make a stainless model it will likely be ELMAX or M390.
 
Hunter -
I'm looking forward to the AEBL machete, but keep looking at the Fjord Hiker too. Do you have any left? It looks like you are out of terotuff scales for that? Any chance that is still an option?
thanks
 
Hey,

I have lots of Fjord hikers left and have Terotuff available. I've just had a few purchased on the site recently and need to update it.
 
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