Flitz and semichrom msds info

A

alabamaomi

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Jan 22, 2012
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Was wondering what the abrasive size was with these 2 items so started looking. It appears that both use Aluminum Oxide as their abrasive. I sent an e-mail to Flitz asking the abrasive size in microns. Semichrom distributer did not have link to ask a question, but a phone number. Will call in the morning and ask. The Simichrom web site did have this on their FAQ page:
How does Simichrome work?
Simichrome is specially-formulated using the finest micron particle size abrasive of any polish available combined with special cleaning agents. Because the abrasive particles are so fine, Simichrome will not harm uncoated metals surfaces. Unlike chemical polishes, Simichrome will not remove a layer of the metal surface being cleaned. This is especially important on gold and silver plated metal pieces and jewelry.

More to follow.
 

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I've never known what the particle size for Simichrome is, but sort of figured it must be extremely fine, based on the polish it leaves. If the particles were very big at all, it should be easier to see some of the scratches left (at least under magnification). Aluminum oxide is pretty hard stuff, and if the particles were very large at all, they'd dig pretty deep into softer metals like brass. But it polishes that very nicely, too. So I don't worry about it. :)
 
Called Flitz. Office did not have answer and they said they would ask one of their chemist at another location and would call back with the answer. Will see on Monday. If no call. I may call them back on Tuesday.
http://www.flitz.com/
 
This is interesting info, in terms of grit size. I'd sort of assumed the Simichrome was finer than 8 - 10 micron, but that illustrates the difference in performance, for a given grit size, when comparing different abrasives. Diamond abrasive at the same size would likely leave some heavier scratching, whereas this is leaving a high polish, even on softer metals. Puts it in clearer perspective.

Thanks for going to the trouble to clarify this. Always good to know exactly what we're working with. :thumbup:
 
Good info to have, I'd like to hear the Flitz info too. I've used Flitz for years on all kinds of stuff including guns and knives. Flitz is what I've been using for stropping too, since it's what I had on hand. If there's a better material to use, I'll switch to that, but I haven't yet come across anything definitive about what abrasive to strop with.
 
The person at Simichrom knew the answer right out of the gate. May have been asked that before.

I wonder if the hardness of the abrasive material has an impact. Abrasive may start out at the 8 to 10 micron, but break down into smaller particle size when used if "soft"?

One would think that diamond abrasive stays constant with use and does not break down with use?

Any material scientist / engineers around to answer that question?

If I was a betting man I would peg the FLITZ at the same size as it appears that both use aluminum oxide as their abrasive. We will see when the answer comes in.
 
Hardness and shape, for the most part, is what distinguishes one abrasive from another. Silicon carbide is very hard and brittle, so it is known to 'fracture' (break down to smaller particle sizes) with use, and that's relatively easy to see on wet/dry sandpaper made with it. The sandpaper will get smoother with use, which can be used to advantage at the higher grits. A 'used' piece of 2000 grit paper will produce a higher polish than a new piece.

I haven't heard of aluminum oxide breaking down in such a way*. Ceramic hones (which are made of aluminum oxide) are a testament to that; they last forever and will maintain their cutting/polishing characteristics just as long, assuming they're kept clean. It can be very hard, similar to silicon carbide. But it typically won't cut as aggressively at a given particle size. I suspect that's got something to do with the shape of the particles, which may not be quite as sharp or jagged as silicon carbide's particles. That's sort of the neat thing about silicon carbide; even at very small grit size, it still removes metal very fast, which attests to the aggressive cutting shape of the particles, staying jagged like shards of broken glass, even after they fracture into smaller sizes. Because they are getting smaller, they obviously don't cut as deeply into the steel, but they do keep cutting. The net result is a finer finish left behind, and it still does so pretty fast.

Diamond hones are known to have a 'break-in' period, where they start out producing a slightly coarser finish, and then become a little smoother after some use. I think it's more of a finite change though, as their performance will steady out with some use. Not so much the particles/crystals themselves fracturing, but more just due to excess diamond particles being scrubbed off the hones early on, leaving a somewhat more consistent and level layer of particles on the hone. You sort of have to be careful with the diamond particles scrubbed off a coarse hone, in making sure they don't get onto one of your finer hones. A larger 'coarse' particle will leave scratches that really stand out, if it's laying on top of a finer hone. This is why I don't think they break down, in themselves.

* = Edit on 07-JUL-2015:
I've since read a little more about the 'friability' of abrasive grit, and about it's relevance to aluminum oxide abrasives. I'd mentioned above that I hadn't heard of it breaking down, but it seems more plausible to me now. Friability is the tendency for a grit particle to break down under use, and many manufacturers of such grit can and do design it into some abrasive grit products, with some being more friable and others less so. In considering how that could be used to make a product start removing metal aggressively and then taper off to a finer finish, it makes a lot of sense.


David
 
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This is a thread I will follow with great interest too. I have used many different brands but am currently a big fan of Flitz.
 
I called back today and spoke to a different person. I had to explane stropping and knife shapening and grit size:) She took my office number and said she would have to route the question over to Germany. It sounds like both Simichrome and Flitz are manufactured in Germany. I will try to remember to call NLT next Wendsday if I do not hear back by then....
 
Got a responce back from FLITZ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pls apologize the delay.
The average size of the polishing particles are at 3-3,5 µm
Kind regards


So 3 to 3.5 microns is the grit size in FLITZ!!!!
 
Good info! Thanks for contacting Flitz!

Thanks to Obsessed with Edges for recommending fine sandpaper in another thread. I dug up some still unpacked 2000 grit 3M paper in my stuff, and that is the bomb! So damn fast!

Love this forum.
 
I believe (not sure) that Simichrome will give a finer finish than Flitz.
Wonder why?
 
Bill DeShivs said:
I believe (not sure) that Simichrome will give a finer finish than Flitz.
Wonder why?
Click to expand...

I'm sort of curious about that. I haven't tried Flitz yet, but I might pick some up soon; I think my local ACE store carries it, and I seldom need an extra excuse to go visit them anyway. :)

I've wondered about Simichrome's apparent ability to finish 'smaller' than it's stated grit size, and I've sort of assumed it might fracture or break down a bit in use. It seems to become less aggressive after some time (a few minutes' rubbing), producing a higher polish with some wear; very similar to what SiC abrasives on wet/dry sandpaper are known to do. I've used it on a strop as well, and have noticed it there also. So, I'm also curious to see how Flitz would compare to that.


David
 
Then I'd like to know what the Mother's Mag polishing paste would be? Probably in the same ball park, about 5 microns or so? Interesting how an old thread like this one gets attention once again.
 
Bill DeShivs said:
I believe (not sure) that Simichrome will give a finer finish than Flitz.
Wonder why?
Click to expand...

Obsessed with Edges said:
I'm sort of curious about that. I haven't tried Flitz yet, but I might pick some up soon; I think my local ACE store carries it, and I seldom need an extra excuse to go visit them anyway. :)

I've wondered about Simichrome's apparent ability to finish 'smaller' than it's stated grit size, and I've sort of assumed it might fracture or break down a bit in use. It seems to become less aggressive after some time (a few minutes' rubbing), producing a higher polish with some wear; very similar to what SiC abrasives on wet/dry sandpaper are known to do. I've used it on a strop as well, and have noticed it there also. So, I'm also curious to see how Flitz would compare to that.


David
Click to expand...

Well, I did run over to ACE yesterday and did find some Flitz. :thumbup:

Very quick & informal first impression:
I applied some Flitz to a piece of denim and stropped my Case CV Sod Buster's edge (using a hard backing under the denim). My Soddie is thinned considerably at the edge (probably sub-25° inclusive, maybe close to 20°), and it's previously been honed & stropped to a very subtle convex and perhaps a 'hazy mirror' finish (by naked eye). The Flitz-on-denim stropping initially seemed noticeably slower than Simichrome in changing the finish and edge performance. I was testing the cutting as I usually do, alternating back & forth between slicing phonebook pages and checking for shaving and/or tree-topping of hair from my forearms. As I mentioned, initially after the first 5-10 passes on the strop, I wasn't seeing much change for better or worse. BUT, after going after it a little more vigorously (just to see if over-stropping might degrade the edge), I'm noticing the polish coming up to pseudo-Simichrome levels, AND I'm also noticing IMPROVEMENT in tree-topping of hair from my forearms, therefore a subsequent improvement in whisper-quiet zipping through phonebook paper, with the edge immediately biting and diving into the paper.

In some sense, I think Bill's impression is accurate, in that Simichrome at least seems to noticeably alter the finish more rapidly (bringing up the shine). My impression with the Flitz is that it may still get it there, but seems to go about it more gently, therefore taking just a few more passes (maybe 20-30, instead of 5-10) to produce the same apparent polish and change in edge performance. That sort of subtlety in working aggressiveness can be a good thing, in that it seems easier to fine-tune the edge finish without going too far and over-polishing too quickly (I've sometimes done that with Simichrome, on a strop).

For a 1st impression, even though it's a very early & quick 'test' of it, I'm liking how the Flitz is working. I'll have to try it out in some other tasks as well, and it'll be some time before I feel like I have a reliable impression, but it looks encouraging so far. :thumbup:


David :)
 
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