Flux alternatives?

R

Red-Country

Joined
Feb 23, 2014
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A while back I heard that sand was used to pattern weld steel before flux came around. Is it true that you can use sand? I've been looking around and can't find really any information on this, but I would like to know if anyone else had heard of this. Or tried it?
 
Many things can be used as flux. Clay slurry is common in Japan (from what I have read). I am sure type of clay has something to do with it. Now there are some more modern alternatives, Hydrocarbon is very common today. Soak the billet in kerosene and weld it up as usual. Also dry welding (no flux needed). Just weld up all the seams and you now have no problems. Put it in a can with a bit of paper and seal the ends. There are others but these are the most common used on knives from what I can gather.
 
Red,

Welcome to the forums. Tell us a little about yourself like experience level etc so we can better answer your questions. Also fill out your profile. It might result in an invite to someones shop.
 
Thanks for the tips. I'm about to deploy to Afghanistan and will have a lot of free time on my hands as well as used wire rope, and (you guessed it) sand. I was hoping to add the 3 together with a fire and made a billet or two for some knives. I've made several knives using the stock removal method using 1095 and L6 and want to try making it from start to finish myself. I've never welded or smithed before, but I'm gonna have a lot of free time to work with it and try to make it good. What advice could you give me for working with sand and wire rope "Damascus"? Also I'm probably gonna be using wood for my fire. Any advice in general would be greatly appreciated.
 
I posted this in another area, and was told I might get more answers here.

A while back I heard that sand was used to pattern weld steel before flux came around. Is it true that you can use sand? I've been looking around and can't find really any information on this, but I would like to know if anyone else had heard of this. Or tried it?

I'm about to deploy to Afghanistan and will have a lot of free time on my hands as well as used wire rope, and (you guessed it) sand. I was hoping to add the 3 together with a fire and made a billet or two for some knives. I've made several knives using the stock removal method using 1095 and L6 and want to try making it from start to finish myself. I've never welded or smithed before, but I'm gonna have a lot of free time to work with it and try to make it good. What advice could you give me for working with sand and wire rope "Damascus"? Also I'm probably gonna be using wood for my fire. Any advice in general would be greatly appreciated.
 
Clean silica sand has been used in the past for flux. I believe that was more with wrought iron, which has a higher welding heat, but you can try it. Another flux alternative is agricultural lime, the white stuff that comes in big sacks. I have not tried it but I've heard of it being used with success. It probably would work better than sand. Soak that wire rope in kerosene for a couple of days, and brush it clean before heating for twisting tighter, then welding. Flux the billet at a low red heat and twist already fluxed at a bright orange heat. Then flux again, heat back up to yellow, soak for a minute, and weld.
 
welding with sand flux - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9wL2M153HY


For an alternative there use 20 mule team borax, lime, salt peter, powdered charcoal, or kerosene.
Read up on hydrocarbon flux welding. It is used by some really good damascus makers.

Just a note - sand welding isn't what you would use for making damascus.
 
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Kerosene works great for the initial weld on a billet, but obviously you don't want to try that with a hot piece. LOL. I still flux the billet with 20 Mule team after the initial welds because you still want to make sure the edges are stuck, but the kerosene appears to pretty much eliminate the possibility of getting any slag caught up in the middle of the stack.
 
jdm61 said:
Kerosene works great for the initial weld on a billet, but obviously you don't want to try that with a hot piece. LOL. I still flux the billet with 20 Mule team after the initial welds because you still want to make sure the edges are stuck, but the kerosene appears to pretty much eliminate the possibility of getting any slag caught up in the middle of the stack.
Click to expand...

Thats how I see it as well. Borax attracts any thing floating about the billet and it can end up anywhere in the stack; I've not gotten a bad initial weld since moving to hydrocarbon solvent. I like the lower temperatures as well.
 
Red, First let me say thank you for your service. This old chief never saw any real action and I appreciate you younger guys for your selflessness.

If you have never done any blacksmith type work you have a pretty long row to hoe. Forging with wood heat is hard enough much less forge welding. The Japanese make charcoal first by partially burning then smothering the fire so the wood burns off all the less desirable combustibles. The stuff in the kingsford bag or the like will not work as it has way too many additives. If you can get hold of some lump charcoal you can use that. But then you need a forge. You could build an in ground type forge you will need some type of blower. Then you are going to need and anvil and hammer. A large sledge hammer head sunk into a bucket of cement can work but it is not optimal. If you are lucky you will go to the camp that Charlie Ox taught a knifesmithing class through MWR over in the sand box somewhere. They should still have the set up. I am not sure where he went may have even been in Iraq.

I would really suggest trying to find someone to school you a bit. Learn some basics then you will have an idea of what you will be getting into. I did make a propane forge at my last duty station, Keflavik Iceland. I was able to source everything I needed, some on base and some I had to go into the community to find. If that was possible for you it would be much more effective. You could even get a rail burner set up. Would not need power for that.

Take care and feel free to drop me an email or PM if you need any more help. Not that I have been much.

Be safe over there and let us know how your are coming along.
 
Thank you all for your tips and advice. I've been reading about different ways to forge Damascus including preparation, fluxes, techniques for welding, etc. I've found a lot of information, but it's always better to be as knowledgeable about a topic before you start. I was planning to braze the ends of the rope and burn off all the oils and grease with a torch before starting. I don't know if I'll be able to get my hands on any kerosene while I'm over there, but I'll keep any eye out. More than likely I'll have to try to get some borax sent to me. I was curious about the sand because on my last tour I was stationed in the middle of the desert with nothing around. Figured if it was available and useful... Oh well.

Chief, thank you for your support and for your service also. Doesn't matter if you got in the heavy or not. Only that you served and by doing so helped pave the way for others to serve. I was planning to burn the wood to make coal, and use a in ground fire pit for the forge. For the anvil I was gonna get a scrap piece of armor plate from the boneyard, and I think I can get a blower from one of the old trucks a/c system . And hammers, I got tons of hammer in my tool kits. Anywhere from 2lb baby beaters to special use 30 pounders. Don't plan to ever touch the bigguns though. I tried talking to a couple local smiths in the area and all they said was "eat your Wheaties, because it's gonna eat you up." Not very inspiring, but the drill sgts said I'd never survive basic and I slept through most of it. I know it's gonna be hard, but I hope I'll have plenty of time to get the hang of it. Any other advice y'all can give me?
 
Yeah, no sense brazing the ends of the wire rope, as that stuff will just burn off at a welding heat, and may even hurt your chances of a clean weld. If you won't have the ability to outright weld the ends with gas or arc, you can use iron wire to bind the ends up. I've done all right just carefully forge welding cbale ends with no tackwelds or wire holding them together though.

As you weld, rotating the wire rope as if you are hammering to tighten the spiral of the strands will help to consolidate the cable.

I don't think kero will work well for you, hand welding wire rope. It's better if using a press or even power hammer, where you can get the initial weld in one heat. The carbon jacket falls apart during that heat, and you'd have to cool the billet (no quenching) and soak in kero again before your next heat. With borax you can just keep it hot the whole time.

My first forge used wood charcoal, and was made from a brake drum with a plumbing tee tuyere and radiator hose connection, and the blower from a Datsun pickup for air supply. You should be able to make it work.

By all means go ahead and eat your wheaties but I don't think it'll eat you up. Just might frustrate you for a while, then you'll get it.
 
Also make sure your cable is not galvanized. As Salem said don't braze the ends together. I used to do a forge weld on the ends then twist at welding heat as tight as possible. There are many ways to skin a cat here. The very first cable billet I made turned out great. Then it took me a few years to be able to do it again (to my satisfaction). Just keep at it and you will get there. Other than getting some steel hot and pounding, not much more to tell you. Good luck, we want to see your projects, even if it did not turn out.

Take care and stay safe.
 
Thanks for the info. I saw a video where a guy put the cable in a vise and twisted it while it was at forging heat. He didn't say why. At first I thought it was for the pattern, but after reading Salem's comment I think it was to tighten the wire for the weld. I should have a couple vices so I might try that. Also thanks for the tip on not brazing the ends. I've also heard most people weld a handle on the end of their wire to make it easier to hold it. Do you think I could skip this step and just use a longer rope? Say I want a 10 inch billet, if I use a 2.5 foot rope and just pay special attention to the weld at the begging of my billet. Or would that not work so well?

And I don't know how much internet Ill have but I'll post pics whenever I can.
 
If the cable is large enough in diameter the longer cable should hold up. If you can get hold of some tongs it might be easier. Even with the long rope it can get pretty warm from conduction. The twisting is for welding and pattern development.
 
If you decide you want to try kerosene as a flux...Diesel fuel is almost kerosene, with a bunch of dye to show the fuel tax is paid, and some additives for cleaner burning. Kerosene is also widely used as lamp oil. Either should be available in Afghanistan.

Have fun with the project, be careful... and remember the words of Burl Source

"I am getting the impression that lighting yourself on fire and stabbing yourself are just a normal part of knife making."
 
Thanks A.C. I might have to make some tongs. The rope isn't that thick.
Thanks for the tip Mahoney I'll have access to plenty of modified diesel. And I agree, I haven't made a knife that I didn't cut myself with.
 
Five year old thread ... please look at the dates to avoid posting on old threads.

DE would not work as flux. It would prevent welding.
 
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