Forced patina question. (New pics added)

T. Erdelyi

T. Erdelyi

Joined
Feb 3, 2001
Messages
32,354
I know vinegar will force a patina on high carbon steels but my question is this, is there a material you can put in with the vinegar that will react with the vinegar, steel (and what ever the other metal is) to basically accelerate and more consistently craft a patina.

If the mods feel this needs to be moved to another forum please move it for me, I put it here because the topic of patina is discussed quite often, especially specific to traditional patterns.
 
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In my limited experience (feel free to correct me if need be) if you lightly sand the blade it reacts faster, but the biggest thing is heat. Heat will accelerate the reaction and create a patina much faster, and if it is a scratched surface, it allows more surface area, also speeding the reaction.
 
T. Erdelyi said:
I know vinegar will force a patina on high carbon steels but my question is this, is there a material you can put in with the vinegar that will react with the vinegar, steel (and what ever the other metal is) to basically accelerate and more consistently craft a patina.If the mods feel this needs to be moved to another forum please move it for me, I put it here because the topic of patina is discussed quite often, especially specific to traditional patterns.
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Keep it warm. I've had success just pouring a kettle of boiling water over the blade after degrease. It evaporates off quickly enough. After the initial vinegar treatment try adding peroxide and salt to some vinegar. About 5* as much peroxide to vinegar and a spoon full of salt. Stay vigilant it can work fast.
 
Water + vinegar + heat works very well. I sort of stumbled into it by accident, when using water & vinegar to de-calcify my coffee maker. (Edited: Mixed 1 part vinegar to 2 parts water, per the instructions for my coffee maker), and cycled the mix through the coffee maker (brew cycle). The liquid was ~180°F coming out, and I just 'dipped' my knife blade (Schrade 8OT in 1095 steel) into the pot for maybe 15-30 seconds at a time, for maybe 3 or 4 repetitions. Could actually watch the blade get darker before my eyes, and the reaction speeds up when the blade is lifted out of the liquid (oxygen exposure). When the blade is in the pot, you can actually see bubbles coming from the steel, which is both a little bit cool and a little scary. When 'done', my blade was virtually black, after which I scrubbed it with baking soda and cold water (stops the acid reaction). This will scrub off the heavy black oxide and red rust (if any), leaving a very even grey patina on the blade afterwards. I call it a 'coffee pot' patina. :D


David
 
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Now I know none of this will ever outlast a natural patina and never be as tough but I'm lookin' for consistency for takin' pics. I love the contrast an almost black blade but usually not as durable as natural.

What's the most durable method? I'm gonna check out that link and do a little more searchin' then come back with more questions. :)
 
The information in this thread might prove helpful.

I haven't tried this myself, but never tire of seeing Rick's results.
GEC72Wharncliffeblacka.jpg
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~ P.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Water + vinegar + heat works very well. I sort of stumbled into it by accident, when using water & vinegar to de-calcify my coffee maker. Mixed 1 part vinegar to 3 parts water, and cycled the mix through the coffee maker (brew cycle). The liquid was ~180°F coming out, and I just 'dipped' my knife blade (Schrade 8OT in 1095 steel) into the pot for maybe 15-30 seconds at a time, for maybe 3 or 4 repetitions. Could actually watch the blade get darker before my eyes, and the reaction speeds up when the blade is lifted out of the liquid (oxygen exposure). When the blade is in the pot, you can actually see bubbles coming from the steel, which is both a little bit cool and a little scary. When 'done', my blade was virtually black, after which I scrubbed it with baking soda and cold water (stops the acid reaction). This will scrub off the heavy black oxide and red rust (if any), leaving a very even grey patina on the blade afterwards.


David
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Is it better to let it air dry or should I dry with a lint free cloth, if the blade is hot enough it dry pretty quick.

A few more questions, if I repeat process, should I let it set up in between applications, I saw where was mentioned about stoppin' the process, do I need to seal/oil it in between while sits?

Thanks in advance for all the answers guys.
 
T. Erdelyi said:
Now I know none of this will ever outlast a natural patina and never be as tough but ...
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I hate to go all zen on you guys, but assuming the knife is a user, at what point does a forced patina become an earned patina? Surely it will at some point.

-- Mark
 
mnblade said:
I hate to go all zen on you guys, but assuming the knife is a user, at what point does a forced patina become an earned patina? Surely it will at some point.

-- Mark
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I view a forced patina as just a 'head start under controlled conditions' patina. In other words, making the steel oxidize NOW, while I'm watching and can maintain some control over it, before it happens accidentally (rust) LATER, when I'm not paying attention. I've used my 8OT to fiddle with patina, and have noticed that the subsequent patinas resist the rusting which occurs the first time around. I scared myself the first time, when doing it to the essentially 'clean' blade; it rusted a LOT. I gave it a heavy scrub with baking soda to remove & stop the rusting. On subsequent sessions, the areas with existing patina didn't rust anymore, only turning darker or more even, with only the fringes (un-patinaed) showing some red. That was an eye-opener, and proved to me that the patina does actually help protect the steel.

Once the forced patina is in place, anything else the blade is exposed to will alter the color or even-ness of it a bit. It'll always be changing, from then on. And that's when it starts becoming 'earned', as I see it.


David
 
mnblade said:
I hate to go all zen on you guys, but assuming the knife is a user, at what point does a forced patina become an earned patina? Surely it will at some point.

-- Mark
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Don't get me wrong, an earned patina is the best and only real patina for my EDC but just like puttin' a primer coat before ya paint, same principle.
 
T. Erdelyi said:
Is it better to let it air dry or should I dry with a lint free cloth, if the blade is hot enough it dry pretty quick.

A few more questions, if I repeat process, should I let it set up in between applications, I saw where was mentioned about stoppin' the process, do I need to seal/oil it in between while sits?

Thanks in advance for all the answers guys.
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Glad you asked. I forgot to include, I did rinse the blade thoroughly in cold water after the hot water/vinegar 'dip'. Then gave it the scrub with baking soda. Rinse thoroughly again (hot or cold; hot evaporates quickly, which is convenient).

I personally don't like to let it 'sit' for long, when exposed to the air. As long as the vinegar (acid) is on the steel, air exposure will just accelerate corrosion. So, when it comes out of the pot, I clean it up thoroughly and dry it, as if I'm 'done'. I haven't tried any of the more 'advanced' tricks yet; if there are ways to 'pause' the process by sealing or whatever, I have nothing to contribute there.


David
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
I view a forced patina as just a 'head start under controlled conditions' patina. In other words, making the steel oxidize NOW, while I'm watching and can maintain some control over it, before it happens accidentally (rust) LATER, when I'm not paying attention. I've used my 8OT to fiddle with patina, and have noticed that the subsequent patinas resist the rusting which occurs the first time around. I scared myself the first time, when doing it to the essentially 'clean' blade; it rusted a LOT. I gave it a heavy scrub with baking soda to remove & stop the rusting. On subsequent sessions, the areas with existing patina didn't rust anymore, only turning darker or more even, with only the fringes (un-patinaed) showing some red. That was an eye-opener, and proved to me that the patina does actually help protect the steel.

Once the forced patina is in place, anything else the blade is exposed to will alter the color or even-ness of it a bit. It'll always be changing, from then on. And that's when it starts becoming 'earned', as I see it.


David
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Glad to see there's someone who thinks the same way. ;)
 
Here's another thought, if ya coat the blade with a grease or antietchent could ya create patterns because the material coatin' the blade would prevent the vinegar or etchent from reactin' with the metal underneath, ya could do silhouettes on the blades, that would be cool, kinda like the old school guys that painted the vintage muscle cars of the day.
 
T. Erdelyi said:
Here's another thought, if ya coat the blade with a grease or antietchent could ya create patterns because the material coatin' the blade would prevent the vinegar or etchent from reactin' with the metal underneath, ya could do silhouettes on the blades, that would be cool, kinda like the old school guys that painted the vintage muscle cars of the day.
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This is what many have done with mustard (contains vinegar). The thick(ish) consistency of it allows it to be 'shaped' somewhat on the blade, to form patterns. I think all of those are done 'cold', without dipping/immersing the blade in anything. Don't know how durable that is, though.

There was a recent thread here, about darkening or restoring the dark etch on damascus blades. I had linked a couple of threads from the Knifemaker's forum, which seem to be loaded with info about etching steel blades with acids (including vinegar, and also ferric chloride, a.k.a. PCB etchant), and also some info about making the finished patina more durable. I'm sure at least some of the methods are applicable to forcing patina on other non-damascus blades. Here are the links:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/170118-Etching-Damascus

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/516504-Damascus-Bring-out-the-pattern


David
 
Warm up the vinegar, Apply the first coat then take a paper towel soak it in the vinegar and wrap it around
the blade (blades) and it seems to come out pretty even that way. Then I use a "000" steel wool pad to rub the blade (blades) a little,
so that it has more of a "used" look to it. That's just how I do it...

Jason

After using "000" steel wool pad and using it...
IMG_1255.jpg
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
This is what many have done with mustard (contains vinegar). The thick(ish) consistency of it allows it to be 'shaped' somewhat on the blade, to form patterns. I think all of those are done 'cold', without dipping/immersing the blade in anything. Don't know how durable that is, though.

There was a recent thread here, about darkening or restoring the dark etch on damascus blades. I had linked a couple of threads from the Knifemaker's forum, which seem to be loaded with info about etching steel blades with acids (including vinegar, and also ferric chloride, a.k.a. PCB etchant), and also some info about making the finished patina more durable. I'm sure at least some of the methods are applicable to forcing patina on other non-damascus blades. Here are the links:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/170118-Etching-Damascus

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/516504-Damascus-Bring-out-the-pattern


David
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I have done the mustard, and hot vinegar on a few knives.

With the mustard, it is not only possible to pattern the patina, but you can actually leave it on longer and get an etch deep enough to make the steel surface look like damascus. I have done it on 5160 long enough to leave the steel looking like damascus. You can polish the dark off, and actually make it shiny and it will still have the wavy etching.
 
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