Forschner steel specification??

[oldgranpa]

OK, new question about Forschner grade of steel used.

All sites I checked just say high carbon stainless specially heattreated, etc. etc. But no clue as to just what grade of stainless it compares to.

Anybody have a clue or opinion?

og

 

[mete]

Those european knives don't have that high a carbon content ,maybe .60%. Maybe a 440 B .You can assume 14-16 % Cr.and small amounts of Mo and V.

 

[averageguy]

I seriously doubt it's anything more than 420. I love them - great, affordable kitchen knives.

 

[brownshoe]

I believe that forschner uses a steel that goes by one of those german designations. From a past post I believe you can find it on their website. My knife has a number on the blade that appears to be a german steel designation, maybe yours has one also. There are websites that can give you the compositions of these steels.

 

[averageguy]

That number is not a steel designation.

 

[UnknownVT]

Forschner is an importer and do not make knives -

For many years Forschner was the official importers of Victorinox SAKs -
and Forschner kitchen knives were Victorinox, in Fibrox and rosewood handles.

The Fibrox handled Forschner/Victorinox knives are extremly popular and had become somewhat of a standard in the cooking and butchering industry - probably mainly because of the high quality/low cost ratio.

So Forschner kitchen knives are (in the main) Victorinox, and many of them still show dual etches of both Forschner and Victorinox.

For many years Victorinox were reluctant to disclose their "inox" steel composition.

However I did get a Forschner/Victorinox rolling chopper that came with an attached label that gave some steel information -

There shouldn't be much reason why Victorinox would use a different steel for their SAKs to kitchen knives -
BUT this might just be the case,
or they may have changed the steel (again not much reason to do so....)
as the two web references I have come across give the Victorinox "inox" SAK steel composition differently -

http://www.canit.se/~griffon/knives/text/steel-designations.html
INOX C=0.52 Cr=15 Mn=0.45 Si=0.6 Mo=0.5 Victorinox's SAKs, RC 56

The other web page is not showing at the moment:
http://www.abelit.fo/Victorinox/infoVICTORINOX.htm
But understanding the non-permanence web pages, I saved a copy - which gave this:
QUOTE:
...facts
For both blades we use chrome molydenum stainless steel with 0.52% carbon, 15% chromium, 0.5% molydenum, 0.45% manganese and 0.6% silicium. After a sophisticated hardening process at 1040°C and an annealing temperature of 160°C the blades achieve a hardness of RC 56.
UNQUOTE

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net

 

[mete]

"annealing temperature of 160C" this should read 'tempering temperature'.I wasn't far off in composition.

 

[UnknownVT]

Those european knives don't have that high a carbon content ,maybe .60%. Maybe a 440 B .

I wasn't far off in composition.

Yes... but there were no less than 8 stainless steels that could fall into that "close" category - at:
http://www.canit.se/~griffon/knives/text/steel-designations.html

sorry to say though, unfortunately 440B was not one of them with 0.75-0.95% carbon content.....


--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net

 

[frank k]

The composition given is very close to 425M, and 1.4116 (X55CrMo14).




- Frank

 

[oldgranpa]

Very interesting data! In the ASM Metals Handbook, Ninth Edition, Vol.3, there is no designation for 425M stainless steel. In fact, I could find no American analysis close enough to what Vincent revealed other than it would be a 400 series stainless in the 420 to 440 range. And we know both 420 and 440 steels are popular for lower priced knives. So it appears this is a European designation, and I'm no authority on European alloys mainly having only a little experience with some of their aluminium (that's what they call it) alloys which are also different from ours.
So it remains a mystery just who in Europe is the source for their blade steel, unless they have their own foundry, etc., which they probably do.
Anyway, their blades work for what they're intended for and apparently they make a profit or they wouldn't have stayed in business for so long.
Thanks again, all, for the replies.
og.....who likes American made better, but admires our foreign friends.

 

[brownshoe]

I like american made better, but couldn't find anything in a kitchen knife that matched in price/quality. Lamson knives is probably the closest in quality, but the price is significantly higher.

 

[mete]

Oldgrandpa, don't assume it's a european steel ,it could be made in Japan or anywhere else. There are many standards for steel composition each country has it's own. There is an attempt to unify the standards. Not being involved in these things I don't have all the lists , they are very extensive.

 

[oldgranpa]

mete,
you are right, but I hope the Swiss would not stoop that low as to change something that's worked for them a 100 years just to save a few cents. Besides, the analysis Vincent has revealed is about as cheap as you can go for a quality knife blade stainless. Shipping from elsewhere could raise the cost.
Just my opinion,
og

 

[frank k]

Victorinox is said to get their steel primarily from Ugine (France with a Swiss subsidiary) and ThyssenKrupp (Germany). Secondary suppliers are said to include Bohler (Austria) and Sandvik (Sweden).


The exact composition of the steel probably varies slightly depending on the source.


Here is a chart that shows the composition of 425M and 1.4116 -

http://www.pizzini.at/info_stahl_engl.htm





- Frank

 

[averageguy]

If we are to assume that the composition suggested by UnknownVT is correct than it is some type of modified 420, not 425M or 1.4116.

 

[oldgranpa]

I have to agree it's not quite 425M but the new chart that Frank just posted from pizzini (Austrian knife company) shows a good match with 1.4116 with only the silicon being slightly lower.
Don't confuse the european designation "4116" with American standards since in America the last two numbers of an alloy steel represent the carbon content. So this is not .16% carbon. For instance, USA 4140 alloy steel has nominal .40% carbon.
Thanks, Frank for that link to the pizzini chart and the suggested sources.
og

 

[averageguy]

Half the Manganese, half the Silicone and no Vanadium.

 

[pathcallahan]

Ok, this is an obvious necrothread, but I was curious about what is in these knives since they are so highly rated and I had a XRF analyzer (Thermo Niton XL3T) at my disposal. I ordered a knife and these were my results:
Cr:14.35
Fe:83.92
Ni:0.581
Mo:0.459
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ILIjpiuqJyD2EOS2cg34F70ujoVn5ZEk/view?usp=sharing

One major limitation of the XRF analyzer is its inability to measure carbon, so carbon content is still unknown. At this point, I almost want to send the knife to a lab and get a better analysis.

 

[dirc]

since the thread is already a 16 year old, I may as well answer:

victorinox lists the steel they use for stainless sak as X55CrMo14 or DIN 1.4110 - 15% chromium, 0.60% silicon, 0.52% carbon, 0.50% molybdenum, and 0.45% manganese
if its not 1.4110 then it's 1.4116 - http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=1.4116

did you do that testing yourself? The half % of nickel is a bit surprising since neither of those is supposed to have nickel

 

[strategy9]

I've always been under the impression, it's Krupp 4116 (or a very similar mod) with a propietary cryo treatment to maximize performance.

A similar comparrison of Forschner (4116) Steel, would be Bos 420hc...
The steel itself is pretty common, but the proprietary treatment of the steel brings out the best in it...