Full tang/Narrow Tang

J

John A. Larsen

Joined
Jan 15, 2001
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I have been watching a series on You Tube "A Craftsman Legacy" and one episode the host visited Kevin Cashion, Master Blade Smith, who makes swords. In the episode they made a Roman Spatha, and what got my attention was that he tang was relatively narrow not quite a rat tail tang, but far from a full tang. Watched another video on older European swords, and it seemed most of them had relatively narrow, and not wide tangs. Even Japanese samurai swords did not have full tangs, so if swords that would be used to hack at opponents, often wearing armor, did not have to have a full tang to be strong enough, why is it we see so many comments on this or that knife does not have a full tang, or it needs a full tang to be a good bushcraft knife/survival/combat knife? I have a puukko made by Finnish Master Blade smith Pekka Tuominen, curly birch handle and the tang is visible in the brass butt cap. It measures 17/32's wide (13mm) and 1/4-inch (6mm) thick, (steel is 80Crv2) and I am hard pressed to think of a situation where that tang would not be strong enough. I have no problem with full tang knives, I have a bunch of them, but do not feel that the non-full tang knives I have are not up to just about anything I want to use a knife for. I would not be hesitant to "baton" with the Tuominen puukko I mentioned above, not that I am into batoning. Not trying to "Stir the Pot" here, but wonder what is the feelings of others on the need for a full tang knife? John
 
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Marketing...mostly ;)

While a full tang WILL be stronger, it's most likely the difference between a 700lb and 800lb gorilla.

Traditional khukuris, moras, and a whole host of knives get along just fine with a partial tang. Even tactical knives like the Gerber Mk II have a 1.25" tang held into an aluminum handle with epoxy, and when people break them it is usually at the blade.

A great deal of how a knife/sword will perform is based on how it is crafted. Even more important than that is knowing how to use the tool/weapon so that it does not break. Why add another lb of steel to a sword to make it "indestructible" when it is just going to make it slower (and you deader) when you could just train yourself not to swing it like an unhinged monster?
 
No different than those who say that a knife needs a scandi grind to be a "bushcraft knife". To put it in plain English, its all just BS marketing hype published to sell more knives to those who don't know any better and always need to have the latest knife with the best steel that can cut through a bus. Around here its called the "lookit me" factor.
Here are a couple pictures I found on-line of a Marttiini 260. Its a big knife 10+", with a rat tail tang. It shows signs of having been batoned heavily and the blade is still attached...

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How does smacking a knife on the back of the blade stress the tang anyway? Asking for a friend.
 
Boattale, my thought is that people in addition to battening the blade, are pushing down hard on the handle, which depending on the geometry of the tang, like it has 90 degree angle shoulders, puts a large strain on that part of the tang. John
 
Boattale said:
How does smacking a knife on the back of the blade stress the tang anyway? Asking for a friend.
Click to expand...
Exactly. People thinking that a rat tail tang is weak are thinking that the stress forces are at right angles to the thin tang when there is stress on the blade.
If you picture the physics involved there would be many forces involved, some actually pulling or "stretching" the tang. It would be quite strong like that.
Add to that the fact that a tang fit solidly in a handle would make the two act as one piece to an extent. If you accidentally bend a file, the rat tail tang bends where it is sticking out of the handle. The thinnest part would be theoretically it's weaker point but it is supported by the handle.

Picture where this Mora at the top of the pic would bend with lateral stress. It's not at the thinnest part of the tang in the handle.

 
Back when I was working I had a preference for full-tang fixed-blades because aside from using them as cutting tools I also used them as prybars.

On the other hand, one downside to full-tangs can be excessive weight. The knife pictured below has a full-tang. The tang had no holes in it other than the screw holes. The blade stock is just short of 1/4". As a result the knife was rather handle-heavy, which I didn't like. So I drilled and filed a hollow space in the lower half of the tang to achieve the level of balance I wanted. Which was no easy task.

It served me well for about a decade at work, and survived everything I put it through.

H4375d1.jpg
 
Ain't just about durability. A sometimes overlooked aspect is balance. Full tang shifts the balance closer to the handle, and some folks might like that. Personally, I like the balance of full tang large knives. Knife swings a bit more predictably, if that makes any sense.
 
DangerZone98 said:
Ain't just about durability. A sometimes overlooked aspect is balance. Full tang shifts the balance closer to the handle, and some folks might like that. Personally, I like the balance of full tang large knives. Knife swings a bit more predictably, if that makes any sense.
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Agreed.

Fighter/survival-type knives feel much more nimble in the hand with full-width full tangs. While the knives themselves are heavier, it's all about the balance. I do not like excessively blade-heavy knives (choppers are the obvious exception).

This is the main reason I do not like Ontario or Kabar knives with their stick tangs. The balance just doesn't feel right.
 
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Full or hidden tang?
Buy what you like, and like what you buy!
But I will always choose the 800 lb. gorilla!
 
FWIW, full refers to length not width.

view


Then there are all other kinds of variables. Was the stick tang forged or made by stock removal, or a combination?

Are the corners radiused properly? Or are they stress risers? Is the stick in the middle of the blade or higher or lower than the center line?

Balance is important, also potential hot spots caused by handle slabs
 
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eveled said:
FWIW, full refers to length not width. View attachment 1787600
Then there are all other kinds of variables. Was the stick tang forged or made by stock removal, or a combination?

Are the corners radiused properly? Or are they stress risers? Is the stick in the middle of the blade or higher or lower than the center line?

Balance is important, also potential hot spots caused by handle slabs
Click to expand...
This should be pinned to the homepage..
 
As you said in the original post, less-than-full tang can be plenty strong enough. All depends on the how well the knife was made, your own skills in knowing how to recognize the knife's limitations, and the kind of work that you're doing with the knife. If doing crazy heavy duty stuff, best to stick to full tang. If using as an ordinary knife, full tang is not really necessary.
 
I have knives with full tangs, full stick tangs, mortised full-tang, mortised 3/4 tangs, and even drop-forged one-piece construction.
The things I've learned that are most important are that if you need a pry bar, you should use a pry-bar. If you need to chop, an
axe or a hatchet is better. If you have to use a knife for these tasks, you should use a full-tang knife, if possible. But if you're just
going to cut stuff, any well-made knife, with any reasonable tang design, should be able to do the job.
 
Take a look at the cleavers. Yes, most of them are full tang! However, it is by small knife standard. By ratio, they are stick tang compare to outdoor knifes, the tang is still only half the width of the blade at best, if not less since the blade is often time wider.

They are not used to cut, but to chop bones, hard vegetable or hard roots (food), which is very heavy duty work by knife standard, even machete standard for that matter. Yet, do we really see any of them break at the handle? Hardly.
 
John A. Larsen said:
I have been watching a series on You Tube "A Craftsman Legacy" and one episode the host visited Kevin Cashion, Master Blade Smith, who makes swords. In the episode they made a Roman Spatha, and what got my attention was that he tang was relatively narrow not quite a rat tail tang, but far from a full tang. Watched another video on older European swords, and it seemed most of them had relatively narrow, and not wide tangs. Even Japanese samurai swords did not have full tangs, so if swords that would be used to hack at opponents, often wearing armor, did not have to have a full tang to be strong enough, why is it we see so many comments on this or that knife does not have a full tang, or it needs a full tang to be a good bushcraft knife/survival/combat knife? I have a puukko made by Finnish Master Blade smith Pekka Tuominen, curly birch handle and the tang is visible in the brass butt cap. It measures 17/32's wide (13mm) and 1/4-inch (6mm) thick, (steel is 80Crv2) and I am hard pressed to think of a situation where that tang would not be strong enough. I have no problem with full tang knives, I have a bunch of them, but do not feel that the non-full tang knives I have are not up to just about anything I want to use a knife for. I would not be hesitant to "baton" with the Tuominen puukko I mentioned above, not that I am into batoning. Not trying to "Stir the Pot" here, but wonder what is the feelings of others on the need for a full tang knife? John
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This is my version puukko knife ...........I can "baton" rest of my life with this knife and handle and tang would not fall .
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stainless bolt as pin so no rust on back side .....peened
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after tempering
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ready for carbon fiber
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sn5KSsK.jpg

done
98Knupg.jpg

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cdDA5Kz.jpg
 
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