Give it to Cliff.

Walking Man

Walking Man

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Mr. Extrema Ratio USA (Frank, I believe)
The ultimate and I mean ULTIMATE endorsement of your knives here on the Bladeforums would be to send a folder to Cliff Stamp, and see how it holds up. Because of his destructive testing on BUSSEs they have become very popular. He is the "official" tester of knives and his methods are very consistant and scientific. For the most part, if Cliff likes it, so will every one else. In fact, I believe he will test knives for free (or maybe an extra knife)
So I ask, for our sake, and yours, give a folder to Cliff.
Here's his published work:
http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/reviews.html
Also, you might want to ask him to video tape his tests so you can put it on the internet, but I don't know if he does that kind of thing.
So, all friends of the Forums, join with me and say "Give it to Cliff"
 
Actually, and I just thought of this, a really cool thing to do might be to send a passaround knife to few folks, and then the knife would end up at the finale in Cliff's hands. I'd be willing to throw in a few bucks to play with it for a few days. Although from a strictly scientific standpoint, you might not want to do this for fear of having less than optimal testing standards (ie, not exactly new)
 
Ha Ha ha!
Good post Walking man.
That cracks me up. Perhaps a meaningful comparison would be a Greco Falcon and a Megalodon.
What an expensive round of knife death that would be.

It would be quite informative even if possibly a bit unflattering. Some knives seem to reveal their worst side to Cliff for some reason.
 
What cracks you up?
I didn't say let's compare fixed blades and folder anywhere.
 
Well, its the concept of directly asking a manufacturer to submit a knife to Cliff to test.
Its a thorny proposition at best and bound to give any maker/ designer/ marketer of a knife and uneasy feeling.

If I made a knife Im not sure if Id be interested in Cliff destroying it and publicly decrying the inadequacy of my heat treat or steel choice etc.
Its an emotional investment thing.
Most reviews are actually puff pieces designed to give a favorable impression of a certain knife. (Everything you read in a knife magazine)

However Im sure the ER would do pretty well in destructive testing from the looks of it.

P.S. I think the two I mentioned are folders too, I just picked the two toughest I could think of. Just thought it was a good post and it made me laugh....thats a good thing right?
 
However the idea of a passaround for the "plain joe" has merit. At least I think so. ;)
 
Oh no, don't get me wrong Id love to see Cliff test one.
Im just saying its not like hiring someone to do a puff piece.
Id want to be pretty sure of my purpose for submitting to such tests.

ER has a tough design. If anyone could potentially benefit from such a comparison it might be them. If on the other hand Cliff found a way to kill it in an unexpected way it could be embarassing.
Ive always found rather surprising things in his tests.
 
Giving it to Cliff sounds kinda unscientific to me.
As a manufacturer, I would not submit my reputation to a crap shoot like this.

John Greco makes a tough knife.
Perhaps the toughest.
I can imagine two examples of the same John Greco knife given to the same guy for testing, but on different days, perhaps one of those days right after he had a big fight with his wife.
No thanks.

A pass around, with respect for the knife, sounds cool.
How do those sorts of things work?
I would expect Frank to put some sort of limits on use of the knife, say, that he would have to get it back in sellable condition.
I know I wouldn't want to get the knife after Cliff had "tested" it.
I would like to receive the pass around with it in original condition, having cut nothing more serious than printer paper.
Frank should get it back in the same condition.

Since I plan on buying a Nemesis as soon as my wife finishes her master's program, how about passing around a Nemesis to people who will at least put up their credit card number as collateral?
 
Justa couple of IMEs:

A passaround knife almost never comes back in showroom condition.

Even if you did a passaround where you got people's credit card numbers, knives can still get lost in shipping, etc. My feeling is you have to be able to accept the risk of losing the knife.
 
There are no plans to do a passaround. Been there...did that...did not like it.
Also... no plans to have the knives evaluated by anybody. They have already been thoroughly & extensively tested prior to production by the factory. I have never experienced a company like Extrema Ratio. For a small factory/company they have incredible quality control and puts many Euros towards R&D. No further testing is necessary.
 
Well, where is it?
I'd love to see some of the testing that was done. Please.
(or at least read about it)
 
Well, what would they test other than whether their heat treatment produced consistent results?

Perhaps some measurement of the strength of the lock?
 
Charpy impact value at 58rc in comparison to a known tough knife steel, such as A2?
 
Tactical knives magazine had a review of ER folders which I thought was impressive. Let's not forget that a knife is all about cutting. I didn't buy an ER folder with the intention of using it as a pry bar. Let's face another fact, how many people really need a tool with that capability as a edc? IMO the ER folders are extremely well built to the point of being cumbersome.
 
Cliff is a Physics teacher. To say that he is unscientific means that you haven't looked at his website.
His tests are reliable and consistant.
 
http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/military_s30v.html
Here is just one example of Cliff's testing of a folder. He is fair and his tests are what a user might actually do with a knife.
Also, I'd feel more confident with a thumbs up from Cliff, just because he is a very experienced knife user and he is able to tell differences in cutting ability and edge retention, whereas I don't trust my own skills at judging these criteria.
 
I visited Cliff's site.
Thanks for the link.

After an extensive survey of his site, I do not have the same high opinion of Cliff's scientific method as does Walking Man.
I admire Cliff's energy and his inventiveness, but, in my humble opinion, I found most of his tests subjective and inconclusive.
In addition, he sorely abused some knives in the name of testing, and I know I would not send him a knife I had made.

Still, his site makes for good entertainment, and a person could glean some information about a particular knife, with careful reading.

From Cliff's site, I have the impression of a sincere and thoughtful man.
However, rather than take my opinion as fact, the reader should check out Cliff for himself.

I wonder if Frank has any factual information about N690 steel, such as its Charpy impact value or some tests of its resistance to saltwater corrosion.
I know from past research N690 has a good reputation in the industrial meat cutting industry and the Nuclear Power industry.

I would also like to know if ER has tested the strength of the lock.
Just eyeballing the lock on the Nemesis in closeup photos, I would expect it to perform as well or better than the Martial Blade Craft locks of other manufacturers.
In fact, from the pictures and the dimensions, I can't imagine a folder as strong as the ER, including John Greco's extremely tough knives.

I really baby the knives I have selected for self-defense.
When I get my Nemesis, I will make a full report.
But it won't include any abuse; only my subjective opinion of how it feels in the hand and my estimate of the lock's strength.

I know of people who punch John Greco's knives through 55 gallon oil drums and automobile sheet metal.
Yes, I know they'll take it, but I can't bring myself to do that to a knife.
I also know of someone who broke the tip off of a Greco.
What does that prove?

I think in a side-by-side test, the lock and grip on an ER would perform better than a Greco.
I can't speak for the comparative ability of the respective blades to take abuse, since Greco uses low alloy tool and saw steels which traditionally have very little corrosion resistance and very high damage resistance.
Still, some steel manufacturers have managed to make very tough stainless steels; Timken Latrobe's BG-42 comes to mind.

If Frank could get us some Charpy impact values at ER's hardness, that would help; in fact, I wouldn't need anymore information than that.
Of course, steel has a lot of other qualities besides charpy impact value, and I'd like to know about those, but given the inherent relative weakness of folders at the pivot, I don't expect much from a folder beyond good ergonomics, a strong lock, and a tough edge.

As far as ER's fixed-blade knives, one only has to look at the design.
I can't think of another manufactured knife that carries as thick a spine as far out to the point as do all of the ER fixed-blades.

I hope Frank will hide a Nemesis in a drawer for me until after July of '04.
I worry that ER will get way backlogged on the Nemesis.
 
Everyone seems to be wanting to put the ER's to the test, some due to their price point, somedue to the steel used, some due to the aluminum handle materials and the strenght of same.

Any reason these same people have not questioned the MODS, MT's, Blackwoods, or wanted one of their custom 600.00 folders tested before they plunk the down their hard earned [ for some of us ] money?

Geesh, ER is new to the market, if you do not trust what they say, wait awhile, the market will bear fruit whether the knife is worth the money one pays for it.

It seems a lot of people here want to badger Frank to prove ER makes a good knife when I do not see the same thing being asked of their customs which cost more than the ER folders.

Why the disparity? Have you asked Neil Blackwood to produce the saame results of the skirmish before you plunk down the money? How about asking Chris Reeve for results to the same questions of ER folders.
His knives cost as much. Why the disparity in questioning the ER?

I do not understand people who will plunk down for a Reeve Sebbie who have not first gotten the same data and expected proof that his knives will stand the tests any better than anothers.

Come on folks, lets be fair. Did you ask Chris or Ernie, or Strider to prove something before plunking the $ down as fast as you could to secure one of their models? Didn't think so--so again, why the attitude that Frank needs to prove any more or less than the next maker.

Brownie
 
Although a new comer to these posts rarely have I ever seen a moderator comment as much as Mr. Miller has. He has been a perfect gentleman and has responded numerous times even to the most outrageous and sometimes frivolous comments made. Kudos to this man.
I personally own an ER folder and quite honestly I feel it is worth the $$( and I have literally over a hundred folders to compare it with)
 
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