Good article on axe and handle design

Indeed! Good to finally see a source following the same principles I've described regarding handle tuning.

Before mounting the head, its center of gravity is found (fig.6). Typically this point (U) is located at the base of the eye. Next, the centerline AB [B is missing in the drawing] of the head is determined, going through the middle of the poll and the apex of the bit's edge. This line is a tangent, along which the axe will move at impact.

You can see how the neck of the handle has been offset to align the main handle length with the center of gravity.

Axe3_thumb1.jpg
 
Good to finally see a source following the same principles I've described regarding handle tuning.



You can see how the neck of the handle has been offset to align the main handle length with the center of gravity.

Yes, it's good to see that you learned something from your poll-less axe thread. You understand now the value of aligning the axis of control with the center of gravity.
 
Yes, it's good to see that you learned something from your poll-less axe thread. You understand now the value of aligning the axis of control with the center of gravity.

No...I already knew that before I started that thread, and never argued against it...

I seem to recall some folks declaring that making handles for poll-less axe that would create a unified axle was nigh impossible, which ran counter to my own assertions and theory at the time, which I've since demonstrated in practice. I'm currently able to use a photo and digitally map out an idealized handle design, print a 1:1 template, and then have the resulting union of haft and head balance dead horizontal along the main length. As long as I have a good profile picture of the head, the bit's heel-to-toe measure for scaling, and a photo showing the size and position of the eye, I can even sketch them up at a distance and send the template PDF.
 
Yes, it's good to see that you learned something from your poll-less axe thread. You understand now the value of aligning the axis of control with the center of gravity.

No...I already knew that before I started that thread, and never argued against it...

I recall you stating that an axe could become magically balanced by giving it a closed hang and that's why an axe doesn't need a poll.

"You'll often hear internet experts go on and on about thus-and-such axe not having enough poll, etc. etc. when really that could be accounted for either with a more closed hang or an offset in the neck."

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...th-American-trade-axe?p=14571461#post14571461

A closed hang can't balance an axe. An offset haft can. For a badly balanced axe like one without a poll the handle shape becomes freakish and difficult to achieve without runout except with a very special piece of wood.

Additional reading:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ight-in-the-poll-quot?p=16576858#post16576858

Finally you came to the realization that a freakish handle is needed to balance an unbalanced axe.
OffsetCalabriaHandle-284x1024.jpg


Then you went out and made one.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-axe?highlight=right+handle+for+poll+less+axe
 
I recall you stating that an axe could become magically balanced by giving it a closed hang and that's why an axe doesn't need a poll.

"You'll often hear internet experts go on and on about thus-and-such axe not having enough poll, etc. etc. when really that could be accounted for either with a more closed hang or an offset in the neck."

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...th-American-trade-axe?p=14571461#post14571461

A closed hang can't balance an axe. An offset haft can. For a badly balanced axe like one without a poll the handle shape becomes freakish and difficult to achieve without runout except with a very special piece of wood.

Additional reading:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ight-in-the-poll-quot?p=16576858#post16576858

Finally you came to the realization that a freakish handle is needed to balance an unbalanced axe.
OffsetCalabriaHandle-284x1024.jpg


Then you went out and made one.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-axe?highlight=right+handle+for+poll+less+axe

Yeah...you're not understanding what I was getting at...

Actually, the more closed hang is to account for the presentation that's altered by the eye being rearward in the head. It's not unifying the handle along a single rotational axis, but rather correcting the presentation of the bit. Essentially, the bit has to be square with the radius of an arc stemming from the locus of pivot, so if you were to simply take a polled head with a proper set to the bit and then reproduce the same head only with the eye shifted rearward, you've effectively opened the bit presentation relative to the stroke. Hence altering the set of the bit to bring it back to square with the arc of the stroke. You can see some manipulations around that concept in this image.

AxeHangs.jpg


If you left the bit presentation the same, an offset handle for that now-poll-less axe would need to have the fore end of the main handle length pivoted forward to unify its axle while preserving the bit presentation. By contrast, if you closed the presentation to account for the possibility of using an off-axis straight handle, you'd be needing to pivot the butt end rearward instead. Practically, that's a trivial difference, but in one case you have the option of using a straight or offset handle while in the other a straight handle would have too open a presentation in use. An offset is the idealized form of handle for axes not balanced in the dead center of the eye, but those that aren't quite there are still totally usable so long as a suitable degree of mindfulness is applied in the technique used with the tool. The closer the handle is to having a unified axle, the less mindfulness or mental energy required in directing the technique of the stroke. A lack of offset does not render such a tool useless providing the bit orientation is proper, but a straight handle isn't the idealized form.

There's nothing "freakish" about a handle with an offset neck, and they're completely the norm for both adzes and adze-style heavy duty grubbing hoes, which get a lot of abuse. You don't need a very special piece of wood, just one with good continuous vertical grain alignment to avoid runout. Individual wood fibers are actually quite short, so the wood grain not bending to follow the neck isn't problematic in my experiences thus far. Some cursory research indicates that most hardwood species average a mere 1mm fiber length, with softwood species topping out around 7mm for redwoods. I have absolute confidence in the handle I made for that Trento pattern, and the wedged handle I did for the Italian racing axe. They both feel completely solid, with good elasticity and not a hint of complaint or strain under load.

I get that a lot of this jostles some folks because it casts some doubt on certain aspects of the "traditional" (really quite modern) lore or popular narrative of the reasoning behind polled axes, but it's very simple in practice. The fact that the handle I designed using theory then balanced better than most American pattern axes in practice should prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the principles function practically. This is not an argument for or against polls on axes, so let's not run down that silly rabbit hole again, but rather that an axe head is only half the equation and that the handle should be designed around the head in such a manner as to take the center of gravity into account. Not many, seemingly, are actively making use of that principle and are instead gliding along on transcriptions of traditional patterns that are pretty close by happenstance (it's like a long game of "telephone") but still not ideal. It's part of the reason why I think it would be wise for handle manufacturers to produce a handle model where the neck region were left broad, so that an offset could be introduced as needed to perfectly align the individual head in question. At least some certain degree of offset is necessary in most axes if you want them to lay dead horizontal in open hands as the old sources would suggest.
 
Ultimately the big takeaway here is that handles ought to be tuned to the heads they're fitted with. It's not entirely the head's job to "balance" the tool, and it's good to see another source presenting that fact.
 
:highly_amused:Prandi, italian axe maker, professional type axe
t80v2p.jpg

Even the Italians do not use those axes that stick and do not throw a chip when there is work to be done.
 
:highly_amused:Prandi, italian axe maker, professional type axe
t80v2p.jpg

Even the Italians do not use those axes that stick and do not throw a chip when there is work to be done.

Regardless of the fact that there's a lot wrong with your statement, how does that have any bearing whatsoever on aspects of handle design...? ;)
 
Enough! Having to adapt a handle, via a radical offset, to a head defeats the whole concept of creating a balanced axe head in the first place. Sure there are precedents such as wonderfully curved adze handles but that involves utility and not balance, plus you don't pound away with one of these. The moment a handle is not cut or milled straight it becomes vulnerable to grain runout. Snow shovels had straight wooden handles around here for 200 years but now that aluminum tubing and fiberglass handled versions have overtaken the market these things have taken on pretzel shapes all in the name of fashion (and supposed ergonomics).
 
Regardless of the fact that there's a lot wrong with your statement, how does that have any bearing whatsoever on aspects of handle design...? ;)

Well Benjamin, lots. Why do you think the traditional axe users do not make handles like the one you did? Why do you think traditional axe users in Italy, particularly the company I pointed out, have the offset at the bottom of the handle and not near the head?
I think you should provide some evidence of these "unbalanced" American axes. Both hanging a plumbline and held horizontal, bit to poll, in hand.
I also think you should split, fell and buck something more substantial than green pine before you go claiming success. Perhaps a comparison with a standard "balanced" axe as well.
You have yet to prove anything other than you built a handle that is probably going to break. And that small young pine is very soft.
If you are going to rant on about how you are correct without providing any actual evidence dont bother, I am not interested in sales propaganda.
 
Enough! Having to adapt a handle, via a radical offset, to a head defeats the whole concept of creating a balanced axe head in the first place. Sure there are precedents such as wonderfully curved adze handles but that involves utility and not balance, plus you don't pound away with one of these. The moment a handle is not cut or milled straight it becomes vulnerable to grain runout. Snow shovels had straight wooden handles around here for 200 years but now that aluminum tubing and fiberglass handled versions have overtaken the market these things have taken on pretzel shapes all in the name of fashion (and supposed ergonomics).

I have bent and folded so many aluminum and plastic curvy offset handles it is ridiculous.
 
Enough! Having to adapt a handle, via a radical offset, to a head defeats the whole concept of creating a balanced axe head in the first place. Sure there are precedents such as wonderfully curved adze handles but that involves utility and not balance, plus you don't pound away with one of these. The moment a handle is not cut or milled straight it becomes vulnerable to grain runout. Snow shovels had straight wooden handles around here for 200 years but now that aluminum tubing and fiberglass handled versions have overtaken the market these things have taken on pretzel shapes all in the name of fashion (and supposed ergonomics).

Utility afforded by balance! Intended function dictates form, dictates function, dictates form, and on and on. And trust me, you can pound away on them. I was gifted a VERY beaten up adze that had seemingly been used to chop nails and concrete with, and I took it and wailed away as hard as I could on some stumps with the fully blunt, mangled edge (generating the highest possible shock to the handle) and didn't bust it. I feel no strain or even hints of it in the handles that I recently constructed when the tools are actually used, and if anything they yield elastically and pleasantly in a manner indicating their resiliency.

Those so-called "ergonomic" shovels were designed largely by folks who don't understand proper snow shoveling technique, as their shape actually worsens performance and comfort rather than alleviating it, but they're marketed to folks who don't know how to properly shovel and don't know the difference either. If you want to talk curves in wood, just look at scythe snaths. While American ones were made from riven, steam bent stock, modern "Swiss" snaths from industry giant Schröckenfux are cut from ash stock (particularly prone to porous-ring separation) and despite being made thin they don't routinely snap even in bush use despite some truly egregious runout I've seen in some heavily used examples. Those are a low-strain tool, for sure, but the wood has shown to be far more resilient than most online community members would give it credit for. The adze-handled grub hoes I speak of are ones that see railroad use and they're billed as very heavy-duty tools.

The fact is, it doesn't matter if your axe has a poll or not...if the center of gravity isn't dead center in the middle of the eye, at least some small degree of offset is ideal, even if not strictly necessary. Is there an argument being presented against this? I explicitly stated that this was not a "poll-less vs. polled" diatribe, but rather one reinforcing the concepts I've previously discussed regarding how a handle may be tuned to a particular head to unify the axis of rotational balance (axle.) In fact, I've used both American and UK axes in previous discussions on this topic.

A show of hands who think that aligning the primary length of the handle with the center of gravity is a bad thing? Anyone? :p
 
Well Benjamin, lots. Why do you think the traditional axe users do not make handles like the one you did? Why do you think traditional axe users in Italy, particularly the company I pointed out, have the offset at the bottom of the handle and not near the head?
I think you should provide some evidence of these "unbalanced" American axes. Both hanging a plumbline and held horizontal, bit to poll, in hand.
I also think you should split, fell and buck something more substantial than green pine before you go claiming success. Perhaps a comparison with a standard "balanced" axe as well.
You have yet to prove anything other than you built a handle that is probably going to break. And that small young pine is very soft.
If you are going to rant on about how you are correct without providing any actual evidence dont bother, I am not interested in sales propaganda.

The offset at the bottom of the handle? Are you talking about the crook of the grip? That's for totally different reasons...

If I had more substantial wood available I'd gladly demonstrate on it, but I'm limited by what's in my environs. I can pound on some stumps on camera if you'd like.

I can also take photos of plumb lines if you want, but all that does is show that a handle isn't optimized. Fiskars axes, for instance, have the plumb line sitting a decent amount forward of the handle, and while there are those who consider them rubbish there are quite a lot of folks who, contrastingly, consider them good working tools--and I have yet to have an argument come up around their balance being bad. It's nearly always been about the synthetic handle. You can easily find tons of photos on the already-linked Woodtrekker blog showing horizontal balance/imbalance of a lot of production American, Swedish, and "American-styled" axes, and pretty much all of them have some bit-forward bias.

My work in this regard is not commercially motivated, as I actually make less margin on Italian axes and suffer more headache in getting my paws on them than I do selling other more "conventional" axes, and a lot of my research into these matters actually stemmed from scythes and machetes, but was applied to axes as a result of trying to understand (before I even ever had the opportunity to stock and sell them) why Italian axes didn't suck like all the folks online would have had me believe. It all started with an old-production Falci 700g Calabria pattern axe I was able to come into possession of as a result of a group buy. And I tried it, because I liked the idea of an axe with a slip fit handle rather than a tomahawk--a real actual axe geometry to it made for real work. I initially had concerns about the lack of a poll, but in use found that it wasn't a problem of any significance. Being surprised by this, I spent a lot of time figuring out why, and from both theory and practice I'm pretty sure I've got most of it pretty well figured. No one's been able to punch holes in the work so far, despite many efforts to do so, and no one's physically demonstrated those principles being invalidated, to the best of my knowledge. I'm always happy to be proven wrong, though--it means I get to learn something. If you can physically, in the real world, demonstrate those principles as wrong then you have my thanks. As is, you can improve the balance of any American axes with "imperfect" balance by using these methods to offset the necks of your handles, though to a much lesser degree than deep-bitted poll-less axes benefit from. The principle still applies, it's just to a much lesser magnitude.
 
Anyhow, those who have already made their minds up aren't going to be convinced by anything, even corroborating independent evidence, so I'm bowing out. Thanks again, Square_peg, for finding and sharing this! :)
 
The offset at the bottom of the handle? Are you talking about the crook of the grip? That's for totally different reasons...
No, not at all. Nice dodging.
If I had more substantial wood available I'd gladly demonstrate on it, but I'm limited by what's in my environs. I can pound on some stumps on camera if you'd like.
So you do not have the resources to test the handle to back up the claims you make? And are limited to the soft small diameter wood that style axe is used for? Ok. Got your number Benjamin.
I can also take photos of plumb lines if you want, but all that does is show that a handle isn't optimized. Fiskars axes, for instance, have the plumb line sitting a decent amount forward of the handle, and while there are those who consider them rubbish there are quite a lot of folks who, contrastingly, consider them good working tools--and I have yet to have an argument come up around their balance being bad. It's nearly always been about the synthetic handle. You can easily find tons of photos on the already-linked Woodtrekker blog showing horizontal balance/imbalance of a lot of production American, Swedish, and "American-styled" axes, and pretty much all of them have some bit-forward bias.
So you will not do the research and post actual findings. Just claims that suit the position you hold. Got it Benjamin.

My work in this regard is not commercially motivated, as I actually make less margin on Italian axes and suffer more headache in getting my paws on them than I do selling other more "conventional" axes, and a lot of my research into these matters actually stemmed from scythes and machetes, but was applied to axes as a result of trying to understand (before I even ever had the opportunity to stock and sell them) why Italian axes didn't suck like all the folks online would have had me believe. It all started with an old-production Falci 700g Calabria pattern axe I was able to come into possession of as a result of a group buy. And I tried it, because I liked the idea of an axe with a slip fit handle rather than a tomahawk--a real actual axe geometry to it made for real work. I initially had concerns about the lack of a poll, but in use found that it wasn't a problem of any significance. Being surprised by this, I spent a lot of time figuring out why, and from both theory and practice I'm pretty sure I've got most of it pretty well figured. No one's been able to punch holes in the work so far, despite many efforts to do so, and no one's physically demonstrated those principles being invalidated, to the best of my knowledge. I'm always happy to be proven wrong, though--it means I get to learn something. If you can physically, in the real world, demonstrate those principles as wrong then you have my thanks. As is, you can improve the balance of any American axes with "imperfect" balance by using these methods to offset the necks of your handles, though to a much lesser degree than deep-bitted poll-less axes benefit from. The principle still applies, it's just to a much lesser magnitude.



Blah blah blah. I have seen the videos of these axes in action. Not impressed. They come up short in performance. That is why you will only use small soft pine. As I said, If you want to make claims you will have to back them up with actual evidence and comparison. Lol, I see it now, a three inch pine chopping video between your axe and a friskars. Smh.
 
Let me be more clear Benjamin. You keep extending the offer for people to prove you wrong. I regret to inform you that is not how things work. You have made a claim. The burden of proof is on you. No one needs to prove you wrong. You need to prove you are correct. In case some confusion exists you have not done that yet.
 
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