grit vs microns vs mesh. pain in the butt.

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mykem

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I refuse to buy a stone measured in microns. It's a pain in the ass doing the conversion to grit.

Manufacturers, give me a grit number or keep your stone.

And i won't even try to understand "mesh." Screw that too.
 
Micron rating is actually the most directly comparable rating you can use for an abrasive. There are several scales for grit ratings, none of which completely agree with one another. I'm not even sure which scale is the most commonly used. Is it FEPA-P, or CAMI, or ANSI?

A micron is a micron, so it's easy to compare one stone to another. Here's a sticky comparing various grit scales, with a micron equivalent, and entries for some of the common sharpening systems:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/856708-The-Grand-Unified-Grit-Chart

Brian.
 
It took me about 10 minutes to put the common conversions to memory. Different substrates are measured in different ways, for many reasons. If you write down the most common grit sizes in sharpening, and the conversions you won't have to deal with it.

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mykem said:
I refuse to buy a stone measured in microns. It's a pain in the ass doing the conversion to grit.

Manufacturers, give me a grit number or keep your stone.

And i won't even try to understand "mesh." Screw that too.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I mad sometimes too :D
 
What's screwed up is, according to that chart, relative differences in ansi grit don't go by relative size.

example, 40 grit differences...

ANSI.....Micron.........micron difference
240........51
280........ 41........................10
320........33........................ 8
360........28.........................5
400........23.........................5

-now 100 ansi grit jump...
500........18.........................5
600........14.........................4

-now 200 jump...
800........12.........................2
1000........8.........................4 ????
1200........5.5......................2.5

so there's no way to concoct a formula to convert between the two.
 
Mykem,
I didn't think you'd be back; You left mad!

Regarding your sharpening, I think you may be overthinking it. I don't think the "Unified Grit Chart" is too helpful because it doesn't consider the substrate. Ben Dale (Edge Pro) rates his stones differently than the chart does (based on his extensive experience). I think you need to close your eyes, hold your nose, and jump into the pool! Suggestions where to jump: Norton IB8 or JB8 (if you want an oil stone) or a King 250/1000 for a waterstone. Those are reasonably-priced and will sharpen to a pretty high degree. A strop might help finish the edge. When you exceed the abilities of those, people here will help suggest the next stone.

I agree that it's frustrating that there is no universal system. It's probably not possible with so many factors to consider.

Hope it helps,
Dave
 
I can relate.
I feel the same way but about metric fasteners / thread verses inch fasteners / thread.
We seem to be on a trend in this country BACK to inch use.
THAT IS INSANITY !

Science, medicine etc in the USA uses metrics and has for quite a long time. We changed over to a great degree for a while there on more every day products and work. Now I find this inch grunt cropping up again.

I have an easy solution to all of it but . . .
well
they are called conversion charts. For the inch / metric tear the appendix pages out of a MAC or Snapon tool catalog and put it where you use it.

For the grits / abrasive photo copy or print something from on line.
then you run your finger down the columns and then across the page to convert.

Simplicity it's self.

By the way I just bought Shapton stones with my Apex Pro sharpening jig.
If I was all against converting from microns and ignored those I would be missing out on some stellar sharpening stones. The supplier writes the grit equivalent on the back of the metal plate in magic marker by the way. All the other Shapton stones I have are marked from the factory in grit sizes. I wonder what that is all about.



 
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bgentry said:
Micron rating is actually the most directly comparable rating you can use for an abrasive. There are several scales for grit ratings, none of which completely agree with one another. I'm not even sure which scale is the most commonly used. Is it FEPA-P, or CAMI, or ANSI?

A micron is a micron, so it's easy to compare one stone to another. Here's a sticky comparing various grit scales, with a micron equivalent, and entries for some of the common sharpening systems:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/856708-The-Grand-Unified-Grit-Chart

Brian.
Click to expand...

^This. :thumbup:

No 'grit' rating will ever have any significant meaning without knowing the actual, true SIZE of the particles involved; that's what a 'micron' rating does for us, as it's actually a verifiable and measurable unit of dimension (1 micron = 0.000001 meter, i.e. one millionth of a meter). Secondarily, knowing the hardness and typical shape of the abrasive types involved, as well as their tendency to break down or wear with use (relates to friability and toughness of the grit) will then affect how deeply a particular grit type cuts for its size, and for how long. As was also mentioned previously, the substrate in which the grit is embedded (or IF it's embedded) has a huge effect as well. Lots of variables, but the SIZE (in microns) is the first factor providing any concrete and simple means to determine how the grit might behave. To a large degree, all the other 'grit' rating numbers are vague at best, sometimes almost arbitrary.

Wishing a stone or grit manufacturer would provide only a 'grit number' instead of a micron-size rating is just asking for more ambiguity, not less. So be careful what you wish for. Many manufacturers are already too happy and willing to throw some meaningless numbers around to keep unsuspecting consumers happy.


David
 
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I can relate too but isn't that a bit like languages - yes, it's a pain in the butt to communicate in foreign countries but that is also the beauty of variety. My mother tongue is not english.
 
What's so difficult about micron? It IS the universal measurement to use....instead of JIP, ANSI, Mesh, and ALL the other grit "ratings" that sharpening equipment manufacturers put on their stones. The micron rating is by far the easiest to understand and use, and translate across the board. Maybe the Grand unified grit chart will help you see that.
 
samuraistuart said:
What's so difficult about micron? It IS the universal measurement to use....instead of JIP, ANSI, Mesh, and ALL the other grit "ratings" that sharpening equipment manufacturers put on their stones. The micron rating is by far the easiest to understand and use, and translate across the board. Maybe the Grand unified grit chart will help you see that.
Click to expand...

Simply because you declare "the micron IS the universal measurement to use," doesn't necessarily make it so now, does it? No, of course it doesn't.

I think the best way to find what you need for a stone is to ask here and describe what you want it to do.

Second best way might be to read the manufacturer's description, hope they're honest, order what you need and hope for the best.

Now about those microns. This measurement seems agreed on. 1 micron = 1/1,000,000 of a meter, or, written out, one/one millionth of a meter.

I keep finding size analogies for microns;

"For Size comparison, a human red blood cell is about 5 microns across. A human hair is about 75 microns across (depending on the person)."

I do wonder how the various manufacturers measure the micronic abrasive element in their stones.

What a joke. See how easily BS can be applied to stones? "Micronic abrasive element," sounds pretty good, pretty technical, eh? I just made that BS up. And i bet a lot of the manufacturers do too.

And i sure as hell wonder how they get their abrasive elements down to the size of a micron to begin with? Sharp knife?

They must be able to create micron size particles to mix in the correct amount of those abrasive microns with the non-abrasive material to give an honest and accurate micronic count, right?

Nah, gimme grits every time. They're real good with cheese added.
 
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mykem said:
And i sure as hell wonder how they get their abrasive elements down to the size of a micron to begin with? Sharp knife?

They must be able to create micron size particles to mix in the correct amount of those abrasive microns with the non-abrasive material to give an honest and accurate micronic count, right?
Click to expand...

You seem to be asking a question, but really implying that the manufacturers can't possibly know what they are doing. If that's what you're saying, I think you're very mistaken. If that's not what you mean, then what do you mean? Do you really want to know more about this, or are you simply resigned to your original opinion?

Brian.
 
mykem said:
I think the best way to find what you need for a stone is to ask here and describe what you want it to do.
Click to expand...


But but but you can't handle the truth remember?


Any way back on track I would prefer it if everyone used micron it makes mores since because it's always the same
 
Mykem,
Are you truly interested in this stuff, or are you just posting for fun?

There are some very legitimate answers that you seem to discount as nonsense simply because you don't like or agree with them.
Arbitrary units of measurement are exactly that: ARBITRARY. They have no basis of reference or standardization.
A system that has true references are much better.

i.e. - Some places have a drink menu that starts with "medium" and goes to "jumbo". What does "medium" mean?
A stone may be listed as "medium" coarseness. What does it mean?
Imagine someone listed the hardness of their blades as "pretty hard" or "harder than our other model" instead of following the Rockwell scale, or buying a diamond that is "decent sized".

With stones, a true measurement of the abrasive particle size is the only way to know exactly what you are getting.
The question of whether it really matters is something else entirely (witness the master knifemaker who can sharpen a blade to hair-popping ability using a concrete block).
 
robgmn said:
Mykem,
Are you truly interested in this stuff, or are you just posting for fun?

There are some very legitimate answers that you seem to discount as nonsense simply because you don't like or agree with them.
Arbitrary units of measurement are exactly that: ARBITRARY. They have no basis of reference or standardization.
A system that has true references are much better.

i.e. - Some places have a drink menu that starts with "medium" and goes to "jumbo". What does "medium" mean?
A stone may be listed as "medium" coarseness. What does it mean?
Imagine someone listed the hardness of their blades as "pretty hard" or "harder than our other model" instead of following the Rockwell scale, or buying a diamond that is "decent sized".

With stones, a true measurement of the abrasive particle size is the only way to know exactly what you are getting.
The question of whether it really matters is something else entirely (witness the master knifemaker who can sharpen a blade to hair-popping ability using a concrete block).
Click to expand...

So tell me, how do these manufacturers create micron size particles? Are they created uniformly?

And i'd love to meet the master knifemaker who can sharpen a blade to hair popping sharpness using a concrete block. I've heard this before and i think this phenomenon is more myth than reality. Much more.
 
wvdavidr said:
mykem said:
So tell me, how do these manufacturers create micron size particles? Are they created uniformly?

Shouldn't that question be addressed to the manufacturers?
Click to expand...

So many "pro micron" guys chimed in i thought surely one of you would know something of the process of how these micron size particles, which are 1/5 the size of a red blood cell and not visible to the naked eye, are made.
Click to expand...
 
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