Ground Fighting Against Knife

hso

hso

Joined
Dec 16, 1998
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I've just finished the first night of a new knife course where a friend of mine trains. The class is intended for folks with no or minimal prior training. My problem is we were taught some things that goes against everything I've been taught before. Therefore I need some professional input.

The instructor presented ground fighting as the best defense against the horizontal slasher (re West Side Story) type of attack. Drop to your back and kick until the knife is gone or the attacker is. In addition, the position is a flat of the back balanced on the small of the back position. The claim is that it keeps your head and torso further from the attacker. My problems are -

Nothing keeps the attacker from just diving in to stab (no one seriously trying to hurt you with a knife will use only one technique). Another friend of ours did just that to the guy he was partnered with.

Fighting from nearly flat of your back takes abs from hell to maintain control and position. I was taught to fight from a fugure 4 position on my side supporting with the elbow. While it doesn't give me both feet to kick with it allows me to pivot quickly and to "cock and fire" snap kicks and to flip "round house" kicks from the off side. I was partnered with a young (probably 10 years my junior) and very fit looking FBI agent (I'm 44, 40 lbs overweight and have had 3 knee ligament repair/replacements) and was still able to keep him off of me and even forced him to retreat when I went from defense to offense repeatedly. Regardless of this the instructor kept insisting I move to my back.

Why go to the ground when a series of kicks could be used without putting you on the ground for this type of knife attack.

What am I missing here?
 
Have to agree with your experience.

Again, you can test / evaluate your concerns.

Have training partner put on a pair of shorts. No socks. Just tennis shoes.

Get big red marker.

Have your training partner take the position you've described concern with. Then attack him or her using the red marker as your "knife".

Spar in this manner for 30 seconds. No more.

First, see if the marker is dislodged at any point in the exercise.

If so, at which point?

Then count the "stabs" and "slashes" on the training partner's legs from ankle to pelvis. Each mark constitutes a successful wound. Note the length of the marks, their intensity (dark red = hard strike, light red = light strike with the correspondent damage one might expect or predict to the area (muscle/tendon/ligament/arteries/veins).

Allow for the attacker to take any direction necessary to reach and cut the person on the ground. This means there may be wounds on the defender's arms/hands, as well.

Then discuss. You'll most likely confirm your own best held thoughts. A turtle on its back is a meal. A human being on his or her back trying to defend (successfully) against an armed attacker is a victim.

Bear in mind you need to consider the ground environment (nice clean mat or floor? street? sidewalk? yard? dirt? rock and gravel and broken glass?) and remember all bets are off. Anything that can be thrown atop the defender, dropped on him, rolled over him, or otherwise used to smash his resistance so the primary weapon can be brought to bear with effect should be expected.

Rickson Gracie told me that "street" Gracie JJ teaches - at least at his school - that if you go down you do any and everything to get back on your feet. This means grabbing and breaking any available bone offered you; biting; gouging; kicking; throwing street crap; and so on. Rickson preaches mobility. Get up and get mobile ASAP. You don't stay on the ground to fight, you get up off the ground and then do what is necessary to survive / escape.

Getting your legs (mobility) cut to shreds and bleeding out is not my idea of surviving or winning.

But, test the theory as described and then follow your own path on this.

And then let the rest of us know what you discovered:)
 
I was going to reply, then saw that Greg brilliantly posted here, and said it all! I'll throw in a couple things that were taught to me to add to this.

A teacher of mine said, in a fight, as in life, "Movement is life, stillness is death." Once you eliminate your ability to stay mobile, you've just eliminated most of your choices in combat to stay alive. Going to ground should only happen accidentally, not on purpose (in other words, not at all!). So, your rebounding skills should be practiced like crazy. Know the fastest, most efficient ways
of getting back up and staying mobile. Be able to do them, at all times, always. Everytime you get up from sitting, use these methods for continued practice. A lot of times, knowing how to roll back up to your feet is an excellent way. Use the momentum of your fall to bring you back up again.

Many ground fighters teach these methods because it's what they are best at, therefore, they teach what they like (this could apply to any instructor in any style), or the limited view of what they know. Evry "style" of martial art suffers from a certain myopia. Know where each art is nearsighted, and balance your training accordingly.

One of my teachers said this is very dangerous for students. He made this clear by travelling all the way over from Japan, and announced that he was going to teach all the techniques that were not his favorite, and that he was not as skilled in, but others may find them more palatable, and better for their personalities. He would be limiting us, he said, if only taught what he did best, or what he liked best.

I learned the lessons of mobility again from CJ in the tomahawk seminar. CJ and I were sparring freeform, and a few times, I was too busy watching what he was doing (I was reverting to audience mode rather than opponent mode), and so I unconsciously stood there studying his movement, intent, aura, etc. While distracted like this, CJ hopped forward and tapped my knife, or my hand, with his tomahawk, to let me know he was onto it, and was reminding me that I was stupidly standing still, and an easy target. In a real fight, I would not be distracted by watching my opponent to learn, as I was by watching CJ, however, he reminded me that it could easily be something else in combat that could break by concentration, and I need to work on that skill more. It was one of the best barometers for me of what I need to improve on. (Thanks, CJ!). My weakness here was not a physical technique, but a mindset weakness.

That is the weakness I see in your seminar teacher: mindset problem. He's distracted by what he feels comfortable with, skills-wise, and not addressing his weaknesses and improving on them.

Hope this adds a little,

Brian.
 
Brian -

Could not agree more. Really excellent. Thank you. Learned something to add to my own "kit" from your posting.

Chris is one of the best when it comes to intensity and focus as a training partner and instructor. I've heard this repeated over and over and having interviewed him, and studied his video training programs, I see his students and friends are spot on in their assessements.

Jim Keating used to quote the fighter pilot motto at "Top Gun". "Just keep moving!"

On the ground or in the air, that's the ticket to coming out alive.
 
Your intuition was right, Hso. Dropping to your back and kicking as a defense to a knife attack is one of the ridiculous and dangerous things I have ever heard. Your original knife training sounds much better than this turtle crap.

What really frightens me is that this instructor is teaching people this so-called practical knife defense that will get them killed in two seconds. If I pulled a knife on you and you dropped to the ground, I would just follow you down and stab you repeatedly in the upper chest/throat/eyes. Even assuming that you did manage to drop down and keep me away for a second, I would just run around to the other side of your body and stab you in the same area. I guarantee that I can run faster on my feet than you can spin on your back. Not to mention the fact that I'll be slashing and stabbing your legs to all hell, and there are many major arteries in the legs.

Getting in a grappling/turtle-kicking match on the ground with someone wielding a knife is practically suicide.
 
:rolleyes:

I for one would hate to be on the ground with someone standing over me with a knife.

My wife has told me that she was taught to fight on the ground on her back in a model mugging course. Who knows, maybe that's where your instructor got this idea from.

I would want to find out what he basis his teachings on. Has he successfully defended a knife attack this way? Was he taught this technique or did he make this up? If taught, who did he learn from? What does he suggest about multiple attackers, get on your back and spin like a break-dancer?

I think this is a case where you have to be very careful who you learn from. Question everything...


S.
 
"If there is any doubt, there is no doubt. That's the first thing they teach you."

It almost seems as if this guy has adapted a "kick if you end up on the ground until you can get up" technique and turned it into, "guy has a knife, drop to the ground and try to kick him"...what?



Is it too late to ask for a refund?
 
Well, there is not anything for me to add here.
I only want to comment on styles of instruction; whenever possible I feel it is extremely important to observe the students and help them appreciate techniques that will work for them specifically. People have characteristics like all animals that can be enhanced by observing and noting their natural tendencies. Therefore some movements and concepts should be emphasized over others based on what a good instructor notes as the students natural tendencies.
By the way this is not limited to just fighting, but shooting tactics etc. all apply here, as far as I am concerned. So many people just push their doctrine in a very inflexible, narrow-minded manner and this is a grave injustice to their students unless of course that is all they know.
When seriously concerned with life and death a person natural characteristics must be noted observed and appreciated no matter how limited they may appear on the outside, we always have to find a way!
 
Hullo all,

This topic peaked my interest.

I have to look at it from a different angle though, and ask : what if you CAN'T HELP being on the ground and facing a knife? i.e. your bad guy is close to you and draws and you are moving trying to get room to draw your weapon, or moving in to smother his attack, and OOPS hit the ground?

Or, you are in a NON-LETHAL engagement which takes a turn for the worse, you hit the ground on your back and then the knife is introduced?

Self defense or LEO tactics wise, I think that simply stating "going to the ground is suicidal against a knife, don't do it" is simply not good enough.

I don't think TEACHING going to the ground as the best option is all that smart, agreed. But it may happen and I think we need to be prepared for that eventuality and be familiar/continue to explore avenues in which such a situation could be survived.

Now, considering being armed with a firearm in a duty belt, I attended a knife class with a fairly well known tactical training organization wherein we were wearing duty belts and tasked to draw our weapons before the partner got to us and cut/stabbed, within 21 feet. Occasionally angling out and using footwork allowed for redirection and the ability to draw the weapon and fire without being cut. The MOST successful method (i.e. the least number of people that were tagged and cut/stabbed) was to drop on the ground when the partner got close with the knife and fire up at him from the ground. Of course that was in training, but they were fairly uncontrolled drills and very much force on force.

Any thoughts?

Kit LeBlanc
 
I don't know about going to the ground like that. In EST training we were trained to defeat a knife attacker in CQB. Most of the training was centered around trapping the knife and relieving the attacker of it. We started with a dynamic room entry and simulated either a weapon malfunction or a blind attack. Dropping your firearm that is out of commission was the hardest thing to do because yur brain is telling you not to. Once that is pounded into you brian however the first thing we go for is the knife arm. By the way ( you are most likely going to get cut ) how fast you are able to react will help determine your survivability. Anyhow, once the knife is trapped we rotate into the the suspect's torso for either a hip toss or a takedown. Once on the ground we perform a maneuver where you rotate around the back of the suspect like a professional wrestler does to make a rear arm bar. What I am trying to tell you is kicks will only work if you are very skilled. If you dropped to your back to kick me I would just back away and wait till you got up again to get to you. If you are in a situation that is what I refer to as "UGLY", you need to focus on getting that weapon! Especially when someone jumps out from limbo to get at you. If you are able to use the kicking technique, then cudos to ya'. There are so many different types of disarms though. My roomate is a martial arts instructor and swerars he would get me if he had a knife. Different strokes for different folks. Nothing beats training, and Practice, Practice, Practice.
 
Did he teach you guys to run if you saw someone with a knife? If not, he missed the most important lesson.
 
Didn't learn much about running in our course, cause in the situations we were preparing for you don't have much of an avenue of escape. It's all about speed, and surprise, and how fast you can react to a situation turning bad. Most of the time when entering with a GAU instead of a pistol, so you can use your GAU as an impact weapon. However, in housing we use pistols instead of the GAU, so the techniques need to be learned. MIGO is right though. As the proverb goes "Best defense is not to be there in the first place". Run away as fast and far as you can!:)
 
USAFSP,

From your comment RE: using pistols in housing I take it that eliminates the ability to transition...you already have the handgun in your hand?

Faced with a malfunctioning long gun and the same situation transitioning to handgun seems to be a much better defense against a knife, assuming you are equipped with both.

Without the transition, though, closing the gap and pinning that weapon hand are about all you are left with. I note that in your technique you still wind up on the ground.

Incidentally, in the dynamic room entry you mention, where are your teammates? It might be better to train for one of them to shoot the guy since your weapon is malfunctioning.
 
Let me preface this by stating that I am no expert, but it would seem there is a much easier way to go and a way to greatly reduce your chances of being cut. OK, if I get this right the attacker is trying to slash you? If that is the scenario, why don't you just focus on his shoulder(its not moving) and step inside the circle, stike his high radial nerve with your right hand or the bottom of your forearm and if that does not cause him to drop the knife, you are in position to trap his arm and break his elbow with the rotation of your body, therefore avoiding the ground all together. After the elbow break you could finish the attacker off a number of ways, but using your left elbow (assumes the attacker is right handed) to his throat, temple, or vegas nerve should do the trick. Just my .02.
 
Folks, weapons and ground fighting have piqued (sp) my interest as of late. Here was a mental exercise I did early this year
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=164960

The ground defense mentioned is also shown in a video series on floor fighting by Panther Productions. Underlying theory of course is defender staying out of range, attacking with his longest weapons, and somewhat limited mobility. There's more to talk about but that's for later.

I'm particularly interested in solutions for this scenario; defender has shotgun but is knocked to the floor with BG on top armed with knife/stick/pistol.
 
Smoke,
Regarding your scenario: How did BG get close enough to knock the defender down if defender had a shotgun? In general if you as defender(I prefer fighter) are rush and the BG(I prefer attacker) rushes or other wise trys to take you to the ground...go limp and let the attackers momentum carry him beyond you and reverse the advantage. I could demonsrtate easier than I can describe it. If he comes from the front just sit down and use your leg to leverage him over you...then you can use the shotgun several ways, but probably a strike to the side of his neck is the easiest and will generally get the job done. If he comes from the rear as soon as he grabs your arms in an attempt to pin them to your side...just do a "PLF" and use you weight to crush his arm into the ground(parking lot or whatever)...hurts like hell and most probably takes that arm out of the fight. Then finish him as you choose and the situation warrants. Just my thoughts.
 
fish, essentially I'm talking about an ambush in lowlight. The fighter due to unawareness, mistake, or lack of training (doesn't know how to do the stomach wheel throw) is rushed and knocked down.
Fighter is now on his back, shotgun is pinned down muzzle up.

Clearer now?
 
My thoughts;

If you have gone to the ground, you have done something wrong, but the fight is NOT over. Roll to your side and kick HARD towards the aggressors knees or shins. IF you connect solidly enough, this will buy you time to get up on your feet and either run away or draw your knife/gun/ etc.

Get on your feet and stay on your feet. At ALL cost, stay on your friggin' feet! You can flee OR fight while on your feet, but you can do neither effectively while laying on your back.

IF you do end up on your back, at least use that time while you're kicking in order to draw and implement your knife or gun. With a knife in your hand at least you can pivot upon your hip and slash at the shin/achilles tendon of your attacker, or you can draw and fire, fire, fire.

Down or up, continue to FIGHT. Never give up until your attacker is down and out. Never give up. Never. Use your adrenalin to get you through. There is no pain during a fight, only afterwards, and pain is entirely preferable to death.
 
Smoke, I don't mean to be offensive to you, but that fighter(sentry} should have never been issued a weapon. To be caught in the white is inexcusable. If he is pinned down with the shot gun between himself and the attacker, he should look for a way to leverage the shotgun and break the grip of the attacker,or maybe trap one of the attacker's hands?... once the grip is broken the fighter has choices about follow up strikes. If your first stike doesn't acomplish one of three things: Take the attackers balance, create chaos in the attackers CNS or knock the attacker unconscious, you are in deep do do.
To your scenario the best bet would be to get a trained partner and work techniques on each other from that position and determine what works and what doesn't.
 
fish, no problem. ;)

If anything this scenario describes the guy who thinks a shotgun as a magic wand, going around in his bathrobe investigating a bump in the night. In any case, he's in some trouble.
 
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