Guard Stock - 416 vs 303

[Jim Rieck]

I have been using 303 stainless guard stock for a number of years, but I notice that many makers make a point of mentioning that they use 416 stainless for their guards. Not having used 416, I would like to know what attributes 416 has that 303 does not, besides being ferrous (ferric?).

 

[chris609]

416 is free machining its much easier to machine, grind, ingrave than the 300 series.

 

[balibalistic]

416 is easier to work before it's hardened. i prefere 303 as it does not need to be hardened and machines like a dream.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

416 is free machining its much easier to machine, grind, ingrave than the 300 series.

Too many people make the mistake of lumping all of the 300 series stainless into a group and assume they all act the same.

303 makes a great stainless to use for knife hardware, and is the free-machining of the 300 steels, with the addition of a good amount of sulphur.

It is entirely unlike 304 which is gummy and very difficult to turn, tap, thread, etc.

303 is a free-machining stainless, taps, turns and threads well, and is called austenitic stainless, as opposed to 416 which is martensitic. 303 will retain its austenite structure all through the temperature ranges.
One advantage it has over 416 is that it is one of the highest in stain and corrosion resistance of all the stainless steels. Perfect for knife hardware!!

I do find it a little expensive. And, it's difficult to get a really, really nice finish on, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with using it.

I have switched to 416 lately, as I can easily locate round bars up to 4 inches in diameter, and with a power hammer and a press, make any size or dimension that I want.

 

[Leatherface]

I have switched to 416 lately, as I can easily locate round bars up to 4 inches in diameter, and with a power hammer and a press, make any size or dimension that I want.

what size do you suggest?? I am thinking of getting some 3/8"x1"x35" and some a bit thicker in brass for my guards

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

what size do you suggest?? I am thinking of getting some 3/8"x1"x35" and some a bit thicker in brass for my guards

That's a good dimension to have in stock.
I normally go with 1/2", and reduce it if need be.

 

[Jim Adams Customs]

Just a side note, I have met engravers that wont touch 303 SS.

 

[chris609]

Too many people make the mistake of lumping all of the 300 series stainless into a group and assume they all act the same.

Did not know this about 303 I think it would be a better choice than 416 for me.

 

[Mike Quesenberry]

Thanks Karl,

A great little write up on the differences between the steels. I had always assumed that 303 and 304 were very similar. My first intro to machining a guard was with 304. It ended in a broken end mill. After that 416 is all I've used and have been much happier

Too many people make the mistake of lumping all of the 300 series stainless into a group and assume they all act the same.

303 makes a great stainless to use for knife hardware, and is the free-machining of the 300 steels, with the addition of a good amount of sulphur.

It is entirely unlike 304 which is gummy and very difficult to turn, tap, thread, etc.

303 is a free-machining stainless, taps, turns and threads well, and is called austenitic stainless, as opposed to 416 which is martensitic. 303 will retain its austenite structure all through the temperature ranges.
One advantage it has over 416 is that it is one of the highest in stain and corrosion resistance of all the stainless steels. Perfect for knife hardware!!

I do find it a little expensive. And, it's difficult to get a really, really nice finish on, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with using it.

I have switched to 416 lately, as I can easily locate round bars up to 4 inches in diameter, and with a power hammer and a press, make any size or dimension that I want.

 

[A C Richards]

Yes, 303 is much easier to work than 304. It is even a little easier to use than 416 but not much. I have a good source, the local scrap yard has tons in 3/8 and larger flats, but it is still a little expensive. I use mostly 416 now just because that is what is expected by some collectors. I buy rounds and forge it to size like Karl mentioned.

 

[Jim Rieck]

Chuck, you are beginning to get to the root of my question. Why is it that collectors like 416? Does it finish brighter? Do they like it hardened? Is it strictly because it can be engraved well (before heat treatment, I assume)? If it isn't as corrosion resistant as 303, I would expect 303 to be the choice of collectors of knives and for those that are going to actually use them. What say ye all?

 

[A C Richards]

The only benefit I can see is it can be heat treated. This will make it a bit harder and thus scratch resistant. I do not know why it has become the guard material of choice in ss. If it was hard then I would expect engraver's to also shy away. 303 works really easy and is not tummy like 304 or 316. I think there is a stigma regarding all 300 series ss. Why did it get so popular? My guess is that a "big name" maker started using it and thus it caught on. just my guess there. The bottom line is us what you like. If someone wants a fully customized knife then they can stipulate what they want. Then you can decide if you want to take on the job. If you know it is going to be engraved then talk to the engraver to see what they want to cut. I hope this is coherent as I am posting with my phone.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

Just a side note, I have met engravers that wont touch 303 SS.

I wonder if they have the same confusion?
Just a thought.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

......I think there is a stigma regarding all 300 series ss. Why did it get so popular? My guess is that a "big name" maker started using it and thus it caught on..........

I think you are 100% correct.

 

[A C Richards]

I also feel that some engravers lump all 300 series into one group. They only try 304 which is very gummy or 316 which is very tough. Neither work well for engraving. 303 machines very clean and cuts well. There should be no problem engraving it.

 

[Jim Rieck]

Thanks guys for the information and the advice. I learned a lot. I think I am going to be a 303 devotee. The very thought of heat treating a 416 guard after fitting and pinning it sends chills up my spine. To say nothing about what would happen to it when I solder the guard/tang joint. With my luck I would screw up the temper and I might just as well have used the 303.

 

[C L Wilkins]

Thanks guys for the information and the advice. I learned a lot. I think I am going to be a 303 devotee. The very thought of heat treating a 416 guard after fitting and pinning it sends chills up my spine. To say nothing about what would happen to it when I solder the guard/tang joint. With my luck I would screw up the temper and I might just as well have used the 303.

It doesn't have to be heat treated. It is just "heat treatable".

CW

 

[Bruce Bump]

I like the way 303 cuts and machines. I would use it instead of 416 if it will shine as bright as hardened 416. Has anybody done a comparison of the two? I havent but just the couple times I've use 303 I wasnt tickled about the polish it took.

Another question: has anybody heat treated 416 and tested it before and after on a rockwell hardness tester? I think it machines nicely after hardening doesnt it?

One more question: How do you heat treat 416?

 

[RJ Martin]

The big advantage of the 400 series is that they are magnetic, which matters only if you have a surface grinder. While 416 is an excellent steel, the 410 series offers better corrosion resistance. I believe this is because it lacks the Sulfur that is in the 416 to provide free-machining characteristics.

I have machined a bunch of guards from 410SS and really can't tell a big difference between it and 416SS as far as machinability.

If you want to HT 410 or 416, it's a 1900F soak for 30 minutes and oil quench. A 300F temper yields about Rc36-39, I believe. I have never HT'd it for use on knives, as it is really durable as-is.