Gun Safes

[timcsaw]

I've been doing a whole lot of research in preparation of buying a new safe (rifle safe). Looking for a 20-30 gun capacity fire safe.

What do you like? What do you actually own and why?

Liberty? Ft. Knox? Cannon? Sturdy Safe? Browning? Amsec? Any others that you like or don't like?

I'm leaning toward a couple of different brands so far, but will appreciate any input about anything you might be familiar with.

Thanks to all!

 

[mr skurvy]

Thinking about the same thing. I have narrowed it down to three. AMSEC, Sturdy, and Liberty.
Money no issue would be the AMSEC or a custom room build out.

Money being what it is thinking hard about a Sturdy or Liberty. Main reason for delay is we are planning a move so till I know how much weight the floor can take I cant make a decision.
Having looked at all three think the AMSEC and the Sturdy are the most burger resistant.
AMSEC seems to be the most fire resistant.
Liberty is a good budget minded safe with great accessories and least weight.

hope my 2 cents helps

 

[boring]

what do you want it to do? Fire, burglary or both? If burglary, my suggestion first is avoid any safe that does not have a plate steel door. Composite thickness is not compareable to plate door thickness when is comes to security. Buy as big as you can.

 

[timcsaw]

Thinking about the same thing. I have narrowed it down to three. AMSEC, Sturdy, and Liberty.
Money no issue would be the AMSEC or a custom room build out.

Money being what it is thinking hard about a Sturdy or Liberty. Main reason for delay is we are planning a move so till I know how much weight the floor can take I cant make a decision.
Having looked at all three think the AMSEC and the Sturdy are the most burger resistant.
AMSEC seems to be the most fire resistant.
Liberty is a good budget minded safe with great accessories and least weight.

hope my 2 cents helps

Better than 2 cents worth!:thumbup: Those 3 are on my short list also. But I'd figured that the Sturdy was better for fire protection than the AMSEC.

I find it a bit frustrating trying to compare brands because it seems no one uses the same language, and they all say they are the best. No standards for fire ratings... some brands tell you they are American made when the reality is that they are China made and American assembled... Steel thickness of 12 ga. or 11 or 10 or 7? How many relockers? Fire proofing material, sheetrock or ceramic? .... so many things to consider and not all companies give you all the info to make comparison easy.

what do you want it to do? Fire, burglary or both? If burglary, my suggestion first is avoid any safe that does not have a plate steel door. Composite thickness is not compareable to plate door thickness when is comes to security. Buy as big as you can.

Protection against both fire and burglary are what I hope to find. Most I've looked at do have hard plates in critical locations in the doors... some brands more than others.

 

[boring]

Some composite doors are just encased in a folded sheet metal. Not good against pry attacks. I would probably recomend 10ga or thicker for sides and tops. check gun safe videos on you tube. Real eye opener.

 

[Machaira]

While we always seem to run out of room in a safe, don't buy too big.

You can move safes up to about 500 lbs by yourself.

Mainstream movers will often refuse to move a safe much over 500 lbs.

I would rather have 2 500 lbs safes than one 1000 lbs safe.

Just my 2 cents.

M.

 

[Jarrett Fleming]

I own a liberty 40 gun safe that I have had for probably 15 years. I also recently got a great deal on a cannon 40 gun. I was planning on buying a Ft. Knox this time around, but I couldn't resist the price on the cannon.
Liberty and cannon are the only safe company's that I have any type of experience with. Out of the two safes that I own, the liberty is by far my favorite. Its much heavier and it's built better IMO. The liberty has 8 bolts in the door and the cannon only has 6. The fire rating on the liberty is better. I also prefer the way my liberty holds guns (wrap around) over the rows in the cannon. Even though I like personally prefer the liberty. I think that they are both quality safes and I think you would be happy with either one. My .02 cents for what its worth.

 

[Mike157]

I went through this a couple of years ago. It can be a bit overwhelming. I found a couple of websites that exist solely for the purpose of giving you all the information you need to evaluate a safe (I'll see if I can dig them up later). They also had some strong opinions about the minimal specs. a safe should have (1/4 plate, at least 700 pounds, are a couple I think I remember reading). What I did then is look at and compare the top end safes of the major manufactures. When you're spending a lot of money they're all pretty nice - more numerous bolts (top, bottom, and sides of the door), thick plate, heavy duty doors and locks, good door and hinge configuration, good finish, and good finish work. Then I worked my way down to what would work for me in my particular situation. I ended up buying a 24 gun Cannon on sale from Costco. A mere tinker toy compared to the higher end safes (about 470 pounds with 12 to 14 ga construction - thicker on the door I think). If I remember correctly, mine was built in Mexico. It is put together well enough but it's clear that the guys building it were on the clock. Somebody with a good axe or Sawzall could probably get into it but it would be very noisy and with limited room in the closet, probably could not take a decent swing at the safe's side with the axe. For the money I could spend, the space I have, the neighborhood I live in, and where I placed it in my house, it will do. Much better than nothing. Though heavier safes may be a problem for floors to bear, they are also harder to move. The website that I looked at that recommended 700 pounds as a minimum felt that at this weight most thieves would have great difficulty rolling the safe out of your house if they weren't going to break into it where it stands. This brings up the one point many people mention over and over...where ever you place your safe, bolt it down, to the floor and walls if possible. One unfortunate person in our local club had two, roughly 800 pound safes unattached in his garage. Something like 60 to 80 guns combined, some irreplaceable. When he and his family were on vacation, well equipped thieves apparently did roll them out of his garage and they were gone. You can use expansion bolts in concrete, use lag bolts in wooden floors or go through the floor and bolt to plates and or Unistrut on the underside of the sub-floor. Just make sure any thief cannot gain enough access to the nut on one side to loosen it (you can double nut and or peen the bolt threads also). Mine is bolted down in a corner in a closet so it would be harder for anyone to get a good grip to jar it loose. Also consider which direction the door opens (right or left) and whether you'll have room for it to open enough for full access to the inside of the safe. I had to consider this being it was in a corner in a closet. Most safes built now come with electronic locks and if they're built well are for the most part dependable. Mine has one but I would have considered a mechanical lock if they were available for the model I purchased. I had a lock smith advise me to go with the mechanical lock because he said he is often hired to break into safes with electronic locks because they somehow failed (key pad wore out from high usage, etc.) and could be opened no other way. My lock has caused no problems and I have to believe that most high quality electronic locks will operate trouble free for a long time. The slower response time of some electronic locks may take a bit longer to let you into your safe if you're in a hurry. I have a friend who leaves only one number left to be dialed on his mechanical lock so he can open it more quickly (I'm guessing experienced thieves may check for this though). Can't do that with an electronic lock. Also, try to determine what the customer service is like from the company you buy from. Some companies offer great service and some say they do but don't. I did also see a company that offered a safe that one could assemble on site. The plate was heavy and the finished safe was up in the 700 or more pound weight range if I remember correctly. Supposedly, once together, it was very solid (no welding required). Saves having to move a heavier safe in one piece. I'm definitely no expert on the subject so take my late night blabbering as you will. Hope it helps a bit. Mike

 

[WA Martin]

I heartily endorse Browning safes, my largest is in the Bridger series and I'm very happy with it. Much better configured than my Liberty safe although it has served me just as well although it isn't nearly as large.

 

[timcsaw]

Thanks Mike/WA... great info and just what I was needing.

I just read an interesting selling point put out by Pendleton safe Co. about the fireproofing in a gun safe. They don't fireproof ANY of their safes but instead offer a $50,000 warranty if it burns. There reasons for NOT fireproofing in short; most safe Co's fireproof a safe so that it will withstand X degrees of fire temp, for X amount of time (1400 degrees for 90 mins. for example) and will keep the interior of the safe from exceeding 350 degrees under those circumstances. Pendleton has found, by contacting insurance companies, that most times they settle claims for fire damaged homes and almost always have to pay for the safe, and the interior contents of a safe that was in the fire anyway. Though the interior of the safe may have only gotten to 350 degrees, would you really want to shoot the guns that had been baked at 350 degrees if they survived at that temperature? Plastics and such that might surround a metal gun barrel will melt because the barrel has a high incident of heat retention. Many safe companies like to point our that important papers inside a safe will survive 350 degrees (paper combusted at 451), so they suggest in turn, that guns and other items in the safe will survive at 350. Think about this a sec... paper doesn't have a high incident of heat retention as compared to other, more dense materials... you can easily pick up your news paper from your driveway, but the top of your car may be too hot to touch! Pendleton's discussion of fireproofing makes sense if all you will store in a safe is guns (not sure my "plastic" Glock would be in very good shooting shape after it baked in a 350 degree safe for a couple hours), but I do plan to put other items in my safe, so I'm still looking at a fireproof (resistant) model. I would be covered under Pendleton's $50K warranty, but some of the items in there will be irreplaceable.

My safe will have to go into my finished walk-out basement because I don't think my wood-framed main floor will support an 800 pound safe without some serious reinforcement. I plan to bolt it to concrete, bottom and back. Right now, I'm leaning toward a Sturdy Safe. It's body is made of 7ga. steel with a 1/4 plate door, and it uses a ceramic fireproofing material that is proved to be better than the "sheet rock" used in most safes. The Sturdy Safe also comes standard with an S&G mechanical dial lock. Most other companies that build the same safe to the Sturdy equivalent would be considered "high end" models and would run more than $5K where the Sturdy can be had for about $2K. The question I have to ask myself now is, 'do I really need a high-end safe, or could I live with a middle-of-the-road model instead?'... Problem I'm finding is that most of other companies mid-level safes STILL cost well over a thousand so for a few hundred more, I could have a Sturdy that is the equivalent to someone else's High end model.

I'm also looking seriously at AMSEC and Liberty but I'm leaning toward the Sturdy at the moment.

Thanks again for the good info Mike!

 

[Gollnick]

I have a Champion myself and have been very pleased with it.

No safe is 100% burglar-proof. I'm reminded of a case in Portland some years ago in which thieves managed to remove the entire contents of a bank vault; nobody has ever been caught to this day. Obviously, those were extremely-sophisticated thieves (it is my guess that it was actually carried out by some foreign intelligence agency after something incredible in one of the safe deposit boxes). The point is that no safe is perfectly-secure to a prepared criminal. The most common attack upon a safe is simply to cart the whole thing away and work on it later at a more convenient place. So, put it in a place where it is difficult to get it out, bolt it to the floor, and get a heavy safe. (As far as moving it is concerned, if I move, I will prefer not to move the safe but just sell it with the house.) No safe will not protect against a sophisticated thief who comes prepared and is willing to spend some time. Most house burglars meet none of those requirements.

I am aware of several cases where police have lifted fingerprints off of safes. The polished metal and enamel surfaces are perfect for collecting fingerprints and criminals seem magically attracted to touch the safe even if they know they have no hope of opening it.

Fire protection is always rated. Buy the best rating you can. The ability of a safe to withstand a fire and protect its contents can be dramatically affected by the physical placement of the safe. Put it against an outside wall on the ground floor. On a higher floor, the safe may fall through a fire-weakened floor and be damaged in the fall. In the center of the structure, it will be in the center of the fire, the hottest part. On an outside wall, fire fighters can easily direct a cooling water spray on the safe to help. But, of course, this raises the issue of water damage. A good safe has a heat-activated seal that will seal the door shut in such cases.

 

[timcsaw]

Thanks for the info Gollnick... I'm not sure I've looked at Champion or not (I've looked at so many of late), so I'll check them out.

One issue I've found is that there are really no standards concerning fire ratings for gun safes, and every manufacturer might test differently... and in some cases, nearly to the point of deception.

An example; Safe Co. sells an 800 Lb., 60x30x28 in. safe which THEY say is fire rated to withstand a 1400 degree fire for thirty mins. while keeping the interior temp at or below 350 degrees. Sounds good right.

Now let me tell you how they actually tested and came to these conclusions; They took *one of their safes with a temperature sensor located in the center of the interior, then they put it into an oven, shut the door and turned up the temp on the oven to 1400 degrees. They started their stop-watch at the moment they first closed the door and set the oven temp to 1400 degrees. It takes the oven 10 minutes to actually reach 1400 degrees so the safe isn't actually AT 1400 degrees for the first 10 minutes of the test (the oven is heating up).

Now they watch the interior temperature sensor and wait for the temp inside the safe to reach 350 degrees.... when it does reach 350, the test is over (let's say that it takes 20 minutes for the temp sensor to read 350 degrees). As soon as the sensor reads 350 degrees, the "test" is over and they look at their stop-watch which now reads "30 minutes".

They open the oven (hot), pull their safe out of the oven and set it aside to cool in room temperature air. They then describe that THIS safe, can survive for 30 minutes in a 1400 degree fire, and keep the interior from exceeding 350 degrees.

I suspect that at this point, you can see the problems with the companies own fire "test". It's a bit of a sham.

*the safe they ACTUALLY put into the oven to test, may not even be the actual safe model that you have purchased. Many safe companies will test one of their small, office sized safes (which use the same steel thickness, and same amount of fireproof material (sheet rock) as is used in their large gun safes), and then suggest that ALL of their safes of the same construction... but of much larger size... will ALSO be as fire resistant which is a bit deceiving IMO).

Some safe companies send their safes to independent fire testing companies which do offer better quality control and results reliability, but even then, the safe manufacturer may dictate the way in which they want their product tested (put the interior temp sensor in the middle of the safe instead of at the top of the safe where the real highest heat exists etc.) The independent fire testing companies DO, in my opinion, offer a more truthful result, but they can also be "compromised" as they are being paid to test (in a certain way) by the safe manufacturer.

Some safe companies test their safes by putting them into an actual house and burning the house to the ground while measuring interior temperatures in the safe. When they can finaly get to the safe and open it (after the house fire burns out) they draw their conclusions and state their fire ratings based on this "real world" test.

It's a "buyer beware" industry it seems... X-brand safe says they use 1/4 inch steel! What they don't tell you is that they only use the 1/4 inch in the door and the rest of the shell is 12ga. steel. "Made in the US" actually means made in China using inferior Chinese steel (35% softer), and then only assembled in the US.

It's daunting, and a bit discouraging doing the reserch to find a good safe.

 

[Mike157]

One other thing I might mention is what the interior environment of your safe will be like. If you live in a very humid area, you may want to consider some type of renewable descant or electronic device to keep the air in your safe dry. Guns, knives, watches, etc., that aren't stainless will rust in a safe with humid air. Some safes feature pass through electrical outlets so that electronic dehumidifiers, lights, and watch winders (something I didn't even know existed until I began researching safes) can be plugged in inside the safe. Depending on how it's configured this may or may not be something one would consider a positive feature. The type of fire protection used in a safe may affect the humidity of the air in the safe. Some safes use a type of material that, if I remember correctly, is activated with heat but also may release small amounts of moisture into the air under normal circumstances. I once had a small document safe like this. If I did not use and keep a descant bag in the safe and always recharged, the paper documents in the safe would actually get a bit soggy. As for how much you spend on the safe, I would say buy the best one you can afford (or maybe even stretch a little bit) for your purposes. You will probably have it for a long time and still want to be happy with your purchase down the road. If your one and only goal is to keep your guns secure from young kids then a sheet metal box with a padlock may be enough. It sounds like you have more serious considerations though. If you haven't done so already, I would strongly advise looking at some safes first hand just to see how they're constructed (hinge layout, lining, seals, bolt number and configuration, finish, lock, etc.) You may be able to learn a bit more from a decent and knowledgeable sales person. I've seen a whole range of safes from cheap junk to very high quality Brownings, and Cannons in the larger outdoor stores. Another alternative is to look into used safes. People and businesses move and sometimes don't want to bother with the safe. They may either sell it or leave it for the new building owner to deal with. Locksmiths and moving companies sometimes end up with them and often want to sell them. Some pretty neat older bomb proof safes have been found that way. Costco, if you're near one, also does sell some higher end safes and decent prices. Also consider how you're safe is delivered and the company's delivery policy. Some companies/movers will only leave it at the curb side, which for some folks may be 100 feet from their house. Some movers can be bribed (beer, money) to place the safe in the house or garage if they have the equipment to do so. With the right persuasion a few good friends may also help. Since it seems you are going into your garage, you should not have too much difficulty. The thing is to be prepared to place your safe when it is delivered whether you need a commercial dolly, a four wheel roll around cart, or a bunch of friends. Consider how and when you will install the anchor bolts in your floor and then get the safe into position over them (a hole template may be helpful and I think some companies will supply at least a paper one). I like doing as much as possible on my own, and most of my friends don't like to sweat and grunt at projects like this. Using a commercial dolly and my not so strong son, it was all we could do to get our 470 pound safe up four steps from the driveway and into the house so something like 800 pounds will need some good planing. Again I apologize for all of the verbiage. Mike

 

[timcsaw]

Thanks again Mike... good info and things to consider. I'll be bolting my safe to a concrete floor and wall in my basement and do plan on having some sort of good desiccant inside.

You touch on a point I've been wondering about, and perhaps one of our engineer types here could respond (Gollnick?); When it comes to fire "proofing" material used in a safe construction, many companies use sheet rock. I have read that during a fire, the sheet rock releases moisture as steam. This steam is in great part, responsible for keeping the interior of the safe at 350 degrees or less. Same goes with those safe companies that use a concrete-like material instead of sheet rock... as the material heats up it releases it's moisture to help keep the interior of the safe cooler... this does make sense to me.

My question; If a safe does not use sheet rock, or this concrete mixture, but instead uses a ceramic "blanket" and other fire retardant material, does it (ceramic) also contain the moisture to provide the same sort of fire protection? Sturdy safes use ceramic NOT sheet rock or concrete, and tell us that the UL will not even try to test a safe if it uses sheet rock as a fire barrier because they know it will not meet UL standards.

 

[timcsaw]

Through more research, I may have answered my question above about the fire barrier material used in safes.

A simple Google search of the term; "What makes a safe fire proof?" turned up a link to Brown safe company. They provide a massive amount of information about safe construction in general and some really good info about fire proof safe construction.

Brown Safe explains that in trying to make a safe as burglar proof as possible, the methods used by many companies are counter to also trying to make a safe fire proof. As burglar resistance increases = thicker external safe shell, which absorbs heat to transfer to the interior.

For anyone who's interested, Browns site is very informative. Their fire "proof", burglar resistant safes incorporate some interesting design characteristics and they are very, VERY expensive.

 

[Sid Post]

I have two LIBERTY "NATIONAL SECURITY", a CENTURION, and a couple other cheaper safes. I really like the S&G electronic locks and geared lock mechanisms. My National Security safes weigh almost 2,000 pounds and were custom build with 1/4 plate steel in addition to all the standard features. These safes have not burned but, similar ones have burned in residential house fires without charring paper. Theft .... well anyone that can move a loaded safe that weighs 2,000 pounds empty isn't typical. It is nice to know I can travel and have zero fear of loss whether fire or theft for anything in them.

The Centurion and other two cheap safes are certainly much easier to move and provide protection against smash and grab thefts but, a couple meth addicts could put a "loaded" one in a car or pickup and drive away.

 

[Mike157]

With all this great research you're doing, please let us know what you decide on. Thanks for the link to the Brown Safe Company. I'll check it out. Mike

 

[Gollnick]

When it comes to fire "proofing" material used in a safe construction, many companies use sheet rock. I have read that during a fire, the sheet rock releases moisture as steam. This steam is in great part, responsible for keeping the interior of the safe at 350 degrees or less. Same goes with those safe companies that use a concrete-like material instead of sheet rock... as the material heats up it releases it's moisture to help keep the interior of the safe cooler... this does make sense to me.

This is all correct.

My question; If a safe does not use sheet rock, or this concrete mixture, but instead uses a ceramic "blanket" and other fire retardant material, does it (ceramic) also contain the moisture to provide the same sort of fire protection?

No. Ceramic materials do not provide fire protection by retaining water. They are a very good thermal insulator and also very fire-resistant themselves. This is why they're used in applications where the temperature exposure may be very long-term, ovens, furnaces, boilers, etc. With that said, they are not magic; they can not keep the interior of a safe cool indefinitely in a hot fire.

Sturdy safes use ceramic NOT sheet rock or concrete, and tell us that the UL will not even try to test a safe if it uses sheet rock as a fire barrier because they know it will not meet UL standards.

This is one of those half-truths. Many safes using gypsum board or concrete certainly do pass UL standards, so that part is false. But, it is also true that UL does not test these safes. Why? Simply because UL does not test any residential fire-resistant containers for fire-resistance; they are just not in that market. UL has the finest and most-extensive fire testing laboratories in the world. But, the demand on those facilities is large and so they choose not to test in the residential fire-resistant containers market and leave that to other laboratories.

 

[timcsaw]

With all this great research you're doing, please let us know what you decide on. Thanks for the link to the Brown Safe Company. I'll check it out. Mike

Will do... I've a few more things to check out, but right now, it's looking like a Sturdy Safe with fire protection... Need another few days and I'll post my choice and why.

I do appreciate all of the input and suggestions folks!

 

[rfguy]

I had been looking into safes too recently and came across something relatively new at Sam's Club. It was a Snapsafe Little Titan and searching that led to the company's web site which also showed a gun safe of reasonable size. They appear to be using ceramic blankets and 11 gauge (1/8") steel for the body panels and 3/16" steel for the door. The fire rating is supposed to be 2300 degrees for 1 hour. These are modular safes that you can knock down for moving piece by piece which could be useful.

Does anyone have any experience with Snapsafe safes?

I have also been looking at Cannon due to their lifetime warranty which appears to be pretty strong.