Hair-whittling sharp . . . how?

[Lapedog]

I have tried multiple times to get my edges hair-whittling sharp, with no luck. I am hoping someone can offer me some guidance.

I want to get a hair-whittling edge just for fun. I have no practical need for such an edge beyond personal satisfaction.

I have worked with a few different types of steels, the latest three were S35V, Elmax, and M390. I can get each edge super sharp, but can't whittle hair.

I use a Buck Honemaster sharpening guide. I know it is old school and there are much fancier sharpening guides available, but the Honemaster works perfectly well for the one angle it is set to.

I check the bevel with a 20x loupe as I progress. With the loupe, I can see the scratch pattern being successfully refined at each step.

I start with a progression of DMT diamond hones. I use the hones dry. If I am setting a new bevel, I use the XX Coarse hone, which DMT lists as 120 mesh equivalent. I then progress through all the DMT diamond hones, raising a burr on each side of the blade before moving to the next stone. I end the DMT progression at Extra Extra Fine, which DMT lists as 8000 mesh, or 3 micron, equivalent. I should note that once the edge bevel is set on the XX Coarse diamond hone, I can raise a burr on the subsequent hones pretty quickly, say 10 - 20 strokes per side. This is true even for M4 and CPM 10V steels. I interpret this to mean the hones are cutting quickly and the Honemaster is accurately holding a constant angle.

Next, I hone the edge with a Spyderco Ultra Fine ceramic stone, which is generally accepted to be about 3 micron equivalent, but it does refine the edge beyond the DMT EEF hone. On the ceramic stone, I use a mixture of water and liquid dish soap to minimize clogging the stone. Again, I raise a burr on both sides with this ceramic stone. Being ceramic instead of diamond, it takes a little longer to raise a burr.

After the ceramic stone, I strop the blade on flattened basswood strops using DMT diamond paste. I use a trailing-edge motion and go slow with light pressure. Grit progression is 6 micron, then 3 micron, then 1 micron. Again, I check the progression with a 20x loupe, and can see the scratch pattern continually being refined at each step. I have 0.5 micron DMT diamond spray, but I haven't used it, yet. Seems to me I should be able to whittle hair with an edge stropped on 1 micron diamond grit, if I am doing things correctly.

So, after all this sharpening, I borrow a hair from my girlfriend (cue the eye-rolls), and damn I can't whittle it. I've tried moving the blade in both directions along the hair, and at different angles, but no luck. The blade is so sharp it practically reaches out and grabs the skin on my thumb, but it won't whittle hair. Again, I am doing this just for fun, but, still, I would like to be able to achieve hair-whittling sharpness.

Anyone got any suggestions on what I may be doing wrong?

TIA!

Part of whittling a hair is realizing itnis abit of a parlour trick. You have to whittle from the tip ofnthe hair towards the root. This is because of the way the scales that cover a hair overlap eachother. Whittling towards the root lets the edge catch on these scales between where they overlap.

In this picture the root is towards the bottom. See how trying to whittle in the direction towards the tip won’t let you catch those overlaps.

 

[Sonnydaze]

Part of whittling a hair is realizing itnis abit of a parlour trick. You have to whittle from the tip ofnthe hair towards the root. This is because of the way the scales that cover a hair overlap eachother. Whittling towards the root lets the edge catch on these scales between where they overlap.

In this picture the root is towards the bottom. See how trying to whittle in the direction towards the tip won’t let you catch those overlaps.

Now...THAT is a most interesting picture...thanx.

 

[Sonnydaze]

Whittling hair is also a matter of hair quality.

Thin blonde female caucasian hair is easy to whittle.

Thick black male noncaucasian hair is very hard to whittle. Try to whittle his pubic hair, for example.

no, thanx.

 

[Wowbagger]

I end the DMT progression at Extra Extra Fine, which DMT lists as 8000 mesh, or 3 micron, equivalent. I should note that once the edge bevel is set on the XX Coarse diamond hone, I can raise a burr on the subsequent hones pretty quickly, say 10 - 20 strokes per side. This is true even for M4 and CPM 10V steels. I interpret this to mean the hones are cutting quickly and the Honemaster is accurately holding a constant angle.

Next, I hone the edge with a Spyderco Ultra Fine ceramic stone, which is generally accepted to be about 3 micron equivalent, but it does refine the edge beyond the DMT EEF hone. On the ceramic stone, I use a mixture of water and liquid dish soap to minimize clogging the stone. Again, I raise a burr on both sides with this ceramic stone. Being ceramic instead of diamond, it takes a little longer to raise a burr.

After the ceramic stone, I strop the blade on flattened basswood strops


Really you should be whittling hair off the DMT 8,000
To get just breath taking edges, beyond hair whittling, you may want to work with some water stones Shapton Glass for the higher alloys up to and including the M390 which will get silly sharp.
I use those in my Edge Pro.
I touch up with the Ceramic rod you mentioned free hand up to M4. The high vanadium blades such as S110V I just use the DMT.

Light strokes and when you get it shave sharp then try one pass per side until you get whittling. Even partial strokes depending on the size of the knife.
Less is more. Debur with edge leading then ever so lightly refine with edge trailing.

If that isn't working loose the Buck hone and go Edge Pro Apex.
Strop ? What's a strop ? (Kidding but I have zero use for them except to make toothy saws into something useful).

The Edge Pro does take ALL the challenge out of it. Every edge I sharpen is hair whittling and it is effortless. Just go through the motions, don't skip a grit or a step annnnnnnnd . . . oh my gosh is that scary. I like it.

 

[miso2]

I find that the XXC DMT stone leaves very deep scratches when used with too much pressure, and that I have to work a lot (more than 10-20 strokes) to remove them with finer stones, particularly with the coarse DMT.
I did not notice it at the beginning and got very "rough" edges even after XXF.

You may want to check if the "roughness" of the edge after XXC remains at the end.
If so, you have to work more with XC and C (and finer stones) to remove it.
Eventually, it will go away, as you would start with the coarse or finer stones for the maintenance.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[shinbone]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

miso2 - yes that DMT 120 grit is like dragging cheese across a chain link fence. That's why I was using the 20x loupe to monitor progress. There were still a couple of deeper scratches after the 8000 grit hone, but most of the bevel surface was pretty smooth.

Wowbagger - Light strokes and when you get it shave sharp then try one pass per side until you get whittling. Even partial strokes depending on the size of the knife. Less is more. Debur with edge leading then ever so lightly refine with edge trailing. -- Thanks for the detailed advice!

 

[Gday mate]

Very interesting and informative thread, tried to do the follow thread thing and it didn't work. What should I be able to achieve sharpening basic steels(victorinox f dick swibo ) boning knives, I work in the boning room at a pork abattoir. Currently using dmt c through eef and a hard Arkansas

 

[ToddS]

I don't think it really matters how you sharpen, as long as it's at a low angle and you clean-up the burr. You just need to finish by stropping on leather with 0.25 micron diamond and it should whittle hair.

You should also be aware that the hair needs to be clean - if it's oily or "conditioned" it's much more difficult to get the blade to catch the cuticle.

 

[miso2]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

miso2 - yes that DMT 120 grit is like dragging cheese across a chain link fence. That's why I was using the 20x loupe to monitor progress. There were still a couple of deeper scratches after the 8000 grit hone, but most of the bevel surface was pretty smooth.

Wowbagger - Light strokes and when you get it shave sharp then try one pass per side until you get whittling. Even partial strokes depending on the size of the knife. Less is more. Debur with edge leading then ever so lightly refine with edge trailing. -- Thanks for the detailed advice!

You should run the edge over thumb nail (or hard wood) to check the smoothness of the edge.
Otherwise, you may have lingering burrs, which you have to remove by doing what others say.

 

[Bigfattyt]

Bigfattyt - what is your bevel angle?

Heck if I know. I have not used a measured angle system in so long (I have a Lansky that I used for decades, but have not used much in about 12-15 years?

Probably about 15-20 degrees per side. It is a pretty robust edge. I would expect if I put it in a Lansky the 15 might not even touch the apex.

I have a 4 sided strip, and have spent years stripping knives. But the strop is not needed to whittle hair. I can do that right from the fine ceramic stick. I have no idea what grit it would be. It is just a cheap ceramic set from a diamond stone, carbide v, ceramic stick v set. I have a big two grit silicone carbide stone, that I use for serious work to remove more steel.

Also, I have a cheap harbor freight belt sander. It moves a lot of steel, and is pretty quick to get a super sharp edge. I've given a demonstration to a group of my scouts with a throwin knife. I take the edge that's been dulled on a concrete curb. No edge at all, to hair jumping sharp in a few passes on the sander, then show them what the wire edge looks like, then strop it off. Bang, hair jumping sharp.

 

[bucketstove]

Anyone got any suggestions on what I may be doing wrong?
TIA!

Hi,


-) how are you removing burrs?
-) does your edge catch on or clip off any of your arm hairs? above the skin (blade not touch skin just stood up hairs)?
-) how many hairs do you have for testing? how many types, got any beard hairs?
-) how far from point of hold are you trying to whittle? Try whittling closer to the point of hold
-) do you have any razor blades or utility razors or non-high carbide steel knives (as in made from "simple" steels or "razor blade steels")?
-) got any cigarette rolling papers? can your "super sharp" edge push cut one of those? At an angle? With a slice start?
-) can your "super sharp" blade push cut phonebook paper at 90 degrees in all diretions? how far from the point of hold?
-) do you have a food scale or a scale capable of measuring in grams? a travel sewing kit ($1)?

If I were you,
I would try the simplest things first,
which is take one of your "super sharp" blades and clamp into your guide
then shim your angle guide so as to increase the angle by 1-5 degrees,
then go as light as you can, under 50 grams on a scale,
and do one short edge leading alternating pass per side with one your fine diamond stones, then try whittling the many types of hair you have
If you can't whittle any of the hairs,
repeat one short edge leading alternating pass per side , and try whittling again
If you can't whittle any of the hairs,
repeat one short edge leading alternating pass per side , and try whittling again
If you can't whittle any of the hairs,
repeat one short edge leading alternating pass per side , and try whittling again
if you still can't its time to try something else

Next thing is to try a fresh out of the box utility/razor blade
whatever kind you happen to have on hand,
we're trying to get an idea about the hairs you're trying to whittle -- can they be whittled

If you can't whittle with one of these, put the blade in your sharpening guide, ensure your angle is high enough, and do 1 edge leading alternating pass per side on spyderco medium or diamond or ... and try shaving
and repeat 1-4 times,
to see if the hair you have is whittleable?

If you still can't whittle the hair you have now, grow some hairs, esp some beard hairs, those tend to be thicker almost twice as thick as head hair (beard hair is about printer paper thickness), and thus stiffer, and easier to whittle ...

You could measure the thickness of the hair you're trying to whittle to get an idea of where you stand,
or try push cutting cigarette papers (like whittling head hair)
or better still, quantify push cutting sharpness by cutting thin sewing thread a gram scale and compare/calibrate with a razor blade

sharpness-chart.1535016/page-4#post-17691270
...

 

[RadialBladeworks]

Okay, gentlemen, did I say “in the sharpening station this morning?” Because I meant to say “way late this evening...”

But check it:

Thanks to @kwackster for posting photographic proof of something I didn’t actually think was possible. So I hit the stones, lightened up the pressure and finessed quite an edge on my Guardian 3

 

[Bigfattyt]

Root to tip works too. Just takes a little more effort to get there. I'm not the best at sharpening. I don't have any fancy equipment.

 

[shinbone]

Nicely done, Beansandcarrots.

 

[Blues]

(...shinbone, check PM...)

 

[maximus83]

LOL, good discussion in this thread. Still, with some of the stuff we sharpening nerds talk about, I can't help wondering if the general public must think we have a screw loose!

Are you able to do that with head hair though? Typically it is considerably thinner, and we don't know which is more difficult: whittling root-to-tip on thicker chest hair, or whittling tip-to-root on head hair. But I think we'd both be in agreement that whittling root-to-tip on head hair would certainly be the most difficult of the three

Cutting direction, type of hair, dry/wet hair, where you hold it, that someone could whittle hair after a few sheets of sandpaper and one loaded strop, all help put things in perspective.

Whittling hair is also a matter of hair quality.

Thin blonde female caucasian hair is easy to whittle.

Thick black male noncaucasian hair is very hard to whittle. Try to whittle his pubic hair, for example.

no, thanx.

 

[RadialBladeworks]

LOL, good discussion in this thread. Still, with some of the stuff we sharpening nerds talk about, I can't help wondering if the general public must think we have a screw loose!

lmao seriously, eh? Hey Mods, can we put the nail in the coffin and start up a Hair Whittling sub-forum? We can discuss all types of hairs, maybe even start up an exchange. "WTS locks of straight, long hair: 3/10 whittling difficulty, great for beginners"

 

[Blues]

lmao seriously, eh? Hey Mods, can we put the nail in the coffin and start up a Hair Whittling sub-forum? We can discuss all types of hairs, maybe even start up an exchange. "WTS locks of straight, long hair: 3/10 whittling difficulty, great for beginners"

In the interest of precision and accuracy, I think we'll need to properly define the 63 genders so that we can compare apples to, well, you know, the appropriate fruit as the case may be. Wouldn't be fair to compare otherwise.

Let the "Follicle Follies™" begin!

 

[shinbone]

Success!!

It is raining today, so I had to put my normal outdoor activities on hold. Decided to take advantage of the forced down time to work on my sharpening skills.

On the knife that is the subject of my original post, I went down to 1 micron diamond paste on a basswood strop, then finished on a clean leather strop. This is the first time I have ever stopped on clean leather. The 20x loupe showed the leather strop really polished the edge! I was shocked at the polishing effect simple leather had on M390 steel. I think it was the leather strop that made the difference. Bevel angle is 35 degrees included, on a Real Steel Megalodon in M390.

This is cut tip-to-root. I couldn't whittle going from root-to-tip. That will be a fight for another day.

Thanks for everyone's input. It was all very helpful. I learned a lot!

 

[Blues]

Congrats, shinbone! Great job. I guess the Honemaster is a pretty capable little tool.

What hones and progression did you use?

ETA: I ask, not because I didn't read the process in the first post, but only to confirm that you did all the same steps but for the additional strop on leather at the very end. I'm specifically curious which was the coarsest stone you started with on today's journey.

Don't want you to think I wasn't paying attention.