Hamon lines?

Yvsa

Yvsa

Joined
May 18, 1999
Messages
15,395
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I was reading something the other day that got me wondering whether a sword was etched to bring out the hamon or does the difference in hardness of the blade cause the hamon to show up as it should when a blade is properly polished?

Many thanks.


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>>>>---Yvsa---->®

"VEGETARIAN".............
Indin word for lousy hunter.
 
Both etching and proper polishing will "bring up" a hamon/habuchi if it exists on a blade that is heat treated to have one.

By "heat treated to have one," I'm referring generally only to the yakiire fashion of "differential clay hardening" utilized in Japanese-style blades. It is the transition zone occuring from this particular fashion of heat treatment between softer body and hardened edge. Polishing will bring it out as it consists of different grain structures and proper polishing "opens up" the surface of the steel...and etching will bring it out, as it attacks the different structures at different rates.

Just curious, but what in particular made you unsure?
 
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Thanks Robert.
I realize that etching agents such as vinegar in some form or another has been around for eons, but I figured the hamon would come out if a blade was properly polished.
Somehow for what very, very little I know about very old blades I just didn't feel they would be etched so long ago.
Somehow it felt to me that etching wouldn't be a "pure" way to bring out a hamon as you say, "On a blade intended to have one."



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>>>>---Yvsa-G@WebTV.net---->®

"VEGETARIAN".............
Indin word for lousy hunter.
 
Yvsa, nice to see you here!

I hope this may help you. The difference of meaning of "honing". It means sharpning the edge in "knife world." In "katana world", honing (togi) contains every maintenance and/or restoring a sword. A professional honer re-shapenes the sword its shape and its cross section. He also does sharpening, then he polishes, and at last, he does some cosmetics on the katana. He takes $100 per inch as average in turn.
A master can make a good katana look best, keeping its character by only clarifying the character with all his technique including etching and polishing. Some evel master of darkside make a cheap katana look decent by etching and polishing (you may call it painting) the surface. A katana is thought to be an art today, like a picture. If you have an antique picture, do you choose simple cleaning, or do you want to know how it looked by its original colors as it had been painted? The latter attitude has dominated these 400 years now. Not many practitioner - collector prefer the kind as you like.

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\(^o^)/ Mizutani Satoshi \(^o^)/
 
etching CAN bring out hamon/habuchi and even the hada (forge-welded grain patterns), but I don't suggest it unless it's a modern homogenous steel sword that you want to add some contrast to the hamon on. Many people are under the impression that the hamon/habuchi itself is the only real thing to see on a Japanese-style sword. If this were true, we wouldn't be snobby with terms like inazuma and chikei, or maybe sunagashi or uchinoke
biggrin.gif
Lots of stuff that can be looked at, and in proper swords, they are given the most respect (in my opinion) by proper polishing. I have heard things like persimmon juice have been used to help add contrast to Japanese swords, but generally the proper contrast comes from a competent polisher with good understanding and application of shiage (finish polish) involving the hazuya and jizuya fingerstones and nugui compounds.

You can get quite pleasing affects on modern Japanese-style swords by light etching and proper contemporary polish, though it will still be different and (again, my opinion) less beautiful than a traditional polish on a traditional blade.

Etch too hard and you wind up like Chen's mid-range offerings like the Shinto (will attach a pic that was given to me).

shinto.jpg


(if pic shows up)
look how heavily it was etched...note the habuchi is much darker, as opposed to being a milky or luminous white. This comes from the oxides I presume, as they're not too difficult to wipe away with simichrome or flitz (though use sparingly, just enough to clean the excess oxides off, too much can start burnishing over the hamon). Usually blades etched this heavily also have noticeable pitting in the right light, and I've realized some blades that were given a light etch can to exhibit slight pitting as well. But it does do a decent job of bringing the hamon into easy view, which I think is the goal of it in the first place.

Different techniques for different price ranges on different kinds of blades. I guess they have their place.

Shinryû.
 
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Thanks again Robert.
Then my suspicions were correct that the very old blades details were brought out by proper polishing techniques?
I have seen a few examples of old blades that were much prettier than the pic you posted.
That wouldn't be desireable for me.

I still kick myself for not buying an old Japanese Sword many years ago although I was dumb enough then to have probably messed it up if I had bought it anyway.
The edge was chipped towards the point and it didn't have the saya(scabbard?) so I wasn't willing to put out the $225.00 it would have cost me.
frown.gif

And since the blade was chipped n several places I realized that it was no doubt pretty hard and I still wonder sometimes if I passed up a nice example of the old forge work.
Most of the edge was still okay and it was dayumed Sharp!!!
It was the first example of a single beveled edge that I got to examine close up.

Hello Satoshi san.
Thanks for your input.
Yes, I have many varied interests in the wonderful world of blades and antique blades of all sorts have always fascinated me.
The only examples I have are a couple of old Javanese keris.
One is exceptional and has been well cared for while the other one is very old and tired.
I bought it mostly for the scabbard which has the pendang(?) open in the front exposeing beautiful tortise shell. The tortise shell alone is worth the $50.00 I paid for it.
smile.gif




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>>>>---Yvsa-G@WebTV.net---->®

"VEGETARIAN".............
Indin word for lousy hunter.
 
In more recent times, the truly good deals are becoming more and more rare, though they still exist. Lots of people will not really know the difference between a good sword and a mediocre one, as there's a lot of stuff to pay attention to. If you can attend a sword show, please do so...it's easier to get a good idea what stuff is there. However, be careful. While a collector/salesman's dream may be selling one particular Juyo and getting another he likes just as much, his nightmare is having a sweaty drunk swagger up to his table, pick up the blade with his bare fingers, run his thumb on the edge to check sharpness (serious no-no!), cut his thumb, bleed on the blade, let out a delayed cry of pain, spitting all over it, and drop the Juyo blade on the hard floor. Is there no greater crime at a sword show?

But the answer is yes, old blades show hamon/habuchi, activities, grain, et cetera through proper polishing.

biggrin.gif

Shinryû.
 
:
Robert regretfully I know that can be a real situation. Beer used to be served at the Gun & Kife Shows here in Tulsa, but I haven't seen that done for the last several I have been too which imo is a good thing.
I like a good beer or a good single malt as well as anyone, but here's a time and place for that and not while handleing sharp objects.

In the link below is the reason I have been asking about the polishing of hamon lines.
These are not real Japanese Swords nor do they claim to be.
Broken Arrow has done several tests on these "Everest Katana's" made by Himalayan Imports and they are based on an older (188*? I believe it was) model sword that Jim March contributed for a model.
All of his tests up to and including cutting up a cow's spine passed with flying colors.
BA has a review he wrote on the HI Forum somewhere if you might be interested.
I don't want one as fancy as the pix in this link shows, but I am going to have one in the future just to have.
And although Broken Arrow brought out a temper line by etching I am thinking about polishing the blade if it's possible for me to do so.
I imagine the hghly buffed and polished surface has had its grain closed by that process and I am thinking by some judicial use of some very fine papers I might be able to open up the grain exposing the hamon line.
Should be interesting anyway.
It will be a while before I get one of these and even longer for the work, but I if I am successful I will come back and post some pix if anyone's interested.

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum65/HTML/000308.html

Thanks for your time and expertise in this discussion!
It is much appreciated!!!

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>>>>---Yvsa-G@WebTV.net---->®

"VEGETARIAN".............
Indin word for lousy hunter.
 
I'm not particularly fond of HI nowadays...I'm one of those people who won't really forgive what happened with that blade that they were given. I've already heard all the explanation behind it, does not mean I'm going to forgive it.

Personally, I don't think the Everest katana (or any inexpensive sword) deserves a polish, but rather CAN use an etch if you want to show something that doesn't really matter. Since the blades are just inexpensive mock interpretations, aesthetic pleasantries are less necessary. But I guess if people really want to see something, they may as well use comparably cheap methods of bringing it up.
 
Yvsa, two Japanese keris? I've never seen that kind of blade yet. My only experience with keris is my short Indonesian keris, pattern welded.

For me Everest katana is not a copy nor clone of "genuine" Japanese katana. But there surely were spring steel katana in a part of katana history, in China while WWII. It was one of the last few katanas employed for real battlefield use. It had the same characters as had been shown in katanas of 400 years ago, nation-wide battle era. In the next Edo era the government, Bakufu, was very eager to forget the battle days and it succeeded to do so. They limited the blade length, forbid street fights by strict laws. Katanas was taken away the last few part of its role of weaponary. It became aesthetic objects, no longer "users". Users were worn out, broken, bent and left in battlefields. Very few of which remain today, its a minority now. But the "user" with long, heavy, round cross sectioned, blunt at the bottom of the edge, was the peak of its evolution of its efficiency in battlefields. Knowing the battles were fought mainly by guns, then bows and arrows, then lances, I still think it was the peak because katana served its owner more than any other time of history.
Succeeding 300 years, katanas became more and more sophisticated to be our precious "traditional" katanas.
I'm not against beauty in katanas made to be beautiful. I only try to be fair to all the decendant along katana evolution. Everest katana is far from our stereotype katana images, but from other viewpoint, it's the closest to the last genuine "user" katanas.

Is a human being more evolved than an ape? No, both are the result from the same millions of years of evolution in different directions.
Some American enthusiasts and most Japanese believe that the American "mustle" cars with big block are the only "right" American vehicles among American, current, ugly, "fake" small cars.

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\(^o^)/ Mizutani Satoshi \(^o^)/
 
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Robert I can see why you feel that way and if it was an old ndn blade I would be the same.
I have seen some beautiful examples, although few, of old ndn copper blades used by my people, although not my tribes, many, many years ago.
The copper was actually as hard as some fairly well made bronzes and held an edge remarkabley well.
Actually I could do the same thing with a khukuri, the polish that is.

Satoshi San my Keris's are Javaenese and not Japanese.
I don't feel that I "own" them as I don't feel any one can actually "own" any of the very old blades. To me they are just in my keeping.
Ahhhh yes, the old muscle cars.
Actually some weren't really considered "muscle cars" as such.
I had a 1955 Studebaker that could scare me.
It would and could go over a city block sideways coming off the line if one wasn't careful with it.
I grew up around all of the older 40's models fast cars as my dad always had a Packard, Chrysler, Hudson or the like. When I was very young he and mom had an Auburn Boat Tailed Speedster.

I have read a bit about the swords you mention and I agree the Everest Katana is a good personification of them. It wasn't ever meant to be a real katana and no one claims it to be so.
However it is a good sword for practical use for people like me who know little or nothing of the very beautiful old Japanese Swords and Blades of the past.
The Tarwar made by H.I. is also a very nice blade imo, and it appears that there may be a H.I. Saber as well.
I will no doubt go for an Everest Katana, but my interests lay more in the khukuris and other different and exotic blades like the Keris.


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>>>>---Yvsa-G@WebTV.net---->®

"VEGETARIAN".............
Indin word for lousy hunter.
 
One problem that people seem to have trouble with is that they have come to believe that modern is superior to old stuff. To a degree there are advantages...steel is cleaner and does not need to be forge-welded, reducing the risk of welding flaws. Steel is also widely available, so there is no real need for laminate constructions that sacrifice the structural integrity of the sword and risk further flaws under the surface. Steel is also more consistent, makers can know what they're dealing with with various designations that are much more specific than what was possible in the past. This means makers have more consistent practice material. This has obvious positive implications.

These are good things, yet the only thing that changes is a big jump in my respect for old koto smiths who were able to make such masterpieces with what they had.

The Everest "Katana" actually is not a katana, but rather just a "sword." Few people care enough to hear why, so I won't explain in depth. Personally, I think the sword reached its design's evolutionary peak during the Momoyama period through early Edo.

Even though my personal preference is contrary to this...material and heat treating are not concrete for "using" swords. I can -and do- support various homogenous steel blades, with a few different forms of heat treat. But those things don't concern me as much as koshirae and shape.

One of the only reasons for having a hamon nowadays is additional customer incentive... "cool Japanese things" sell, no matter how bastardized or mauled they happen to be. The other thing is "something to look at in the steel" which adds coolness factor. I still almost laugh myself to tears when I hear people talking about the Chen blades' hamon as O-Midari as it was stated in the old BS advertisements. It's just a marketing ploy that people want to take advantage of.

But then again, "munitions grade" stuff has the marketing scheme of being "utilitarian" and "no frills working blades," which is also BS purdy much.

A hamon does not make a sword better. Even if you can't see it, its presence does not improve the blade's quality. But people still gotta have it for its aesthetic presence. You can etch a fake one on if you like, or maybe grind/bead blast one.

Guess it's one of those questions I'll just let go, because I don't think I'd understand.

Shinryû.
 
Yvsa, thanx for your comments on fast cars. Though the traffic conditions around here is harsh, I love to hear those stories.

Robert, I should have explained my biases. Contrary to US sword market, Japanese sword market is made of katanas (including wakizashi, tanto) only. No el cheapos, no modernized super katanas can be found by legality restriction. So is this a better world? No. Another annoying kind of misunderstandings of "older is better" and "every katana is the very best, sharpest, sturdiest, most practical sword in the world" things. I've been surrounded by them since I was born. The believers don't know what many kind of swords exist. They don't even know what modern metallurgy has achieved because they don't want to be analystic but like the world of myths. I still love katanas not because of those superstitions but as what they are. All these made me opt to the katanas from the era when bladesmiths concentrated on practicality paying little attention to cosmetics.
By some luck (or unluck) I once saw "Hissatsu". Just couldn't help laughing. I think I know what makes you upset!

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\(^o^)/ Mizutani Satoshi \(^o^)/
 
Well until modern times, makers could not really focus on cosmetics to a vast degree, as polishing had not reached the technological prime we see available today on Nihonto. To me, that makes old koto masterpieces even more brilliant. I may seem like an ogre when it comes to swords but really I'm not that bad. It's just that people tend to take the style for granted.

The popularity of what some like to call a "temper line" and others like calling hamon can be misleading. If I can run by an old Chen advertisement somewhere, I'll do some quoting from it...I think it helped popularize the association of "temper line" with "Japanese-style" even though the concept has been around for a while.

We should start an organization dedicated to the naming of various non-traditional items...Since "temper line" isn't quite accurate, we could give it a name that doesn't exist yet.

I vote "Flerf"...

I do appreciate that you want to bring up the Flerf on your HI sword, as it shows respect for the composition of the surface of the steel itself.

Shinryû.
 
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