Hand sanding, Should it take me this long?

B

buffalo01

Joined
Oct 13, 2016
Messages
333
Hey guys, I was just curious how long hand sanding takes you. Im working on a 4 inch 80crv2 blade and as usual it is taking FOREVER. I spent from 2 to 6 today getting to 220 grit.
I do have a severe physical disability but i dont think it comes into play that much in this place. I took it to a 240 grit belt to get the decarb off because i always have a lot., then after getting most of it off and a nice flat grind I took it to 150 to get all the grinding marks out and any waves. Before heat treat I had already hand sanded to 220 to get my waves out, and hoped I would not have as much scale, but nope. still a bunch.
Im not sure if it is taking forever because Im not starting with great grinds, I had to use this excuse but my disability does get me hard here, I am a quadriplegic and have very limited use of my arms, and one of my hands is super weak so its hard holding onto the knife.
After taking the scale off my grinds looked pretty good, but it still took probably an hour or more to get both sides with the 150, and I think almost a whole 9x11 sheet per side. Not to mention time spent sandng before head treat.
Do I need to just drop it all the way back down to 80 or 100 grit after getting the decarb off? Or is this just going to take forever no matter what because Im having to work a hardened blade? I plan on taking it to 600 :confused::confused::confused::confused:
blade tempered at 375 for two hours x2, on the hard side I know but i have had really good results in my oven with this
using gator grit premium sandpaper and mineral oil
II am not complaining about the work, I love hand sanding, I just want to make sure Im not doing something completely wrong here. I have watched a ton of videos as well...
Also, Im working on a 1x30 harbor freight grinder with a terrible platin, but have a 2x42 with ceramic platin liner coming in. I know it wont make up for my lack of skill but maybe starting off with better grinds will help with sanding?
Cheers yall, thank you for any advice you can give! And forgive my ignorance for any silly questions!
 
starting off with better grinds will definitely help with sanding, but (for me) hand sanding hardened steel is just plain grueling no matter what.
 
DustinT had a great topic on hand sanding recently. It's probably your platen. Once your grinds are flat you should move up the grits quite fast. If the higher grit highlights the mistakes (nooks and valleys) stay on the lower grit until everything is flat. You might also try different backings and different sandpaper. Nick Wheelers hand sanding video is a thing that is also a must. If your grinds are not flat of the grinder, disc grinder or orbital sander could even them up, maybe you could put a knife in a jig or fasten it with clamps.
 
Thank you guys! Im working really hard on my grinds, hopefully getting this better grinder will make my life at least a little easier. Im getting a lot better with this crappy grinder so hopefully I can really step up my game and cut down on fatigue.
 
for removing decarb i suggest the belt machine. i go to 120 grit pre heat treat, post heat treat i go to 1000 on the belt. then start 1000 grit hand sanding. long ago i would spend many days hand sanding, and still not have a good finish. are you dong the cross hatch method of hand sanding where you sand at a different angle for each grit, making sure all the previous scratches are gone ?
 
john april said:
for removing decarb i suggest the belt machine. i go to 120 grit pre heat treat, post heat treat i go to 1000 on the belt. then start 1000 grit hand sanding. long ago i would spend many days hand sanding, and still not have a good finish. are you dong the cross hatch method of hand sanding where you sand at a different angle for each grit, making sure all the previous scratches are gone ?
Click to expand...
Yessir I do.
 
Buffalo01 welcome! I had actually addressed this and the varying answers seem to truly be crazy. Even just this last week on the knife talk podcast - Craig said it took him 40-50 minutes to do an 8” kitchen knife and Mareko / Geoff said it can take hours.


There is SO much variance but let me lead here with some tips I have, and I’m going to make a follow up post because I broke down to buy a variable speed 9” disk (which is en route, I love hand sanded finishes, it has multiple purposes, so I caved and dove in).


Paper matters - I was using norton black ice which some people claim is better - it’s not. I think that paper will be killer on a disc, but rhynowet redline holds it abrasives much longer.

Tools - there’s a thousand tools you can make / use to assist in this process. Having the right grinder setup makes a big difference but I have a 2x72 and still struggle coming off with some waves. I know ceramic plates help as well, but it’s all about doing as much machine finishing to reduce the time. Ed Mcaffery makes sanding sticks, I have made some and modded some of his (with some 70 duro rubber, I have extra if you need some), but these help. Make the tool ergonomic and a good fit to use for a long time. Having a tool to sand that pains you the entire time really makes the process suck worse than it should.


EDM Stones - these help get out the pesky scratches that seem to take piece of paper after piece of paper to remove but can also prolong the process by gouging (Gesswein makes better stones than the Falcon ones - Falcon stones are the N type, Gesswein ones are the Die Maker Stones). There is a tool that rapidly moves these for you and doesn’t leave much variance in terms of pressure you apply by hand. I know the people I know that love the stones the most use these machines. Still worth having (I have multiples of each if you want a sample).


Steel used & process - this is where it gets frustrating. You don’t know the most optimal process until you develop and test it yourself. I do all my grinding post HT and this is something I get upset about (not knowing all the steps and processes, to perfectly produce the results i want). I hate not having all the answers / guidance, but it makes it fun and makes me feel accomplished when I figure some piece of it out.

Bottom line - make machines do most of the work. I, just like you, spend 6-8 hours on just getting both sides to 220, and that’s coming off the belt at a 800 trizact finish. Is my grinding an issue? Yes. Am I not getting all the stray scratches out on the machine before progressing grits? Obviously. Do I get a uniform finish once I’ve completed each stage of paper on hand sanding? You bet your ass. I feel everyone has a varying level of what’s “acceptable” and good enough. I hate to push a narrative that people that get a good finish insanely quick aren’t getting the same results as the season makers producing some of the finishes I’ve Seen, but I believe there is a difference. I’ll report back once I get the disk though, and update how the process goes. Use as many tools to make the process consume as little time as possible, reach out if you need any material I stated above.
 
Here are a handful of tips that has greatly increased my hand sanding time on hardened blades.
I start at 220 grit BTW.
Use good silicone carbide paper.
I cut 9x11s into 4.5 x 11, then into 2.25 x 11s and then cut each of those strips into thirds. This is an ideal size for me as it fits nicely on my hand sanding backer blocks. These are just rectangular bars with different materials glued to them. One has steel as the backer, another is rubber, another is foam.
I also use a hand sanding fixture i got from Ed Braun, basically you can just C clamp your blade down to a board.
I use windex as a lubricant. Criss cross direction of hand sanding. And my most recent "discovery" which is so simple its stupid:
Speed! Yeah , make sure there is no danger of running your hand into the edge or tip and then go fast, not really hard...just fast.
Oh and I fly through paper...easily can go through 4 sheets (per side) of 220 grit on a 8" chef knife.
 
Last edited:
DustinY said:
Buffalo01 welcome! I had actually addressed this and the varying answers seem to truly be crazy. Even just this last week on the knife talk podcast - Craig said it took him 40-50 minutes to do an 8” kitchen knife and Mareko / Geoff said it can take hours.


There is SO much variance but let me lead here with some tips I have, and I’m going to make a follow up post because I broke down to buy a variable speed 9” disk (which is en route, I love hand sanded finishes, it has multiple purposes, so I caved and dove in).


Paper matters - I was using norton black ice which some people claim is better - it’s not. I think that paper will be killer on a disc, but rhynowet redline holds it abrasives much longer.

Tools - there’s a thousand tools you can make / use to assist in this process. Having the right grinder setup makes a big difference but I have a 2x72 and still struggle coming off with some waves. I know ceramic plates help as well, but it’s all about doing as much machine finishing to reduce the time. Ed Mcaffery makes sanding sticks, I have made some and modded some of his (with some 70 duro rubber, I have extra if you need some), but these help. Make the tool ergonomic and a good fit to use for a long time. Having a tool to sand that pains you the entire time really makes the process suck worse than it should.


EDM Stones - these help get out the pesky scratches that seem to take piece of paper after piece of paper to remove but can also prolong the process by gouging (Gesswein makes better stones than the Falcon ones - Falcon stones are the N type, Gesswein ones are the Die Maker Stones). There is a tool that rapidly moves these for you and doesn’t leave much variance in terms of pressure you apply by hand. I know the people I know that love the stones the most use these machines. Still worth having (I have multiples of each if you want a sample).


Steel used & process - this is where it gets frustrating. You don’t know the most optimal process until you develop and test it yourself. I do all my grinding post HT and this is something I get upset about (not knowing all the steps and processes, to perfectly produce the results i want). I hate not having all the answers / guidance, but it makes it fun and makes me feel accomplished when I figure some piece of it out.

Bottom line - make machines do most of the work. I, just like you, spend 6-8 hours on just getting both sides to 220, and that’s coming off the belt at a 800 trizact finish. Is my grinding an issue? Yes. Am I not getting all the stray scratches out on the machine before progressing grits? Obviously. Do I get a uniform finish once I’ve completed each stage of paper on hand sanding? You bet your ass. I feel everyone has a varying level of what’s “acceptable” and good enough. I hate to push a narrative that people that get a good finish insanely quick aren’t getting the same results as the season makers producing some of the finishes I’ve Seen, but I believe there is a difference. I’ll report back once I get the disk though, and update how the process goes. Use as many tools to make the process consume as little time as possible, reach out if you need any material I stated above.
Click to expand...

timos- said:
Here are a handful of tips that has greatly increased my hand sanding time on hardened blades.
I start at 220 grit BTW.
Use good silicone carbide paper.
I cut 9x11s into 4.5 x 11, then into 2.25 x 11s and then cut each of those strips into thirds. This is an ideal size for me as it fits nicely on my hand sanding backer blocks. These are just rectangular bars with different materials glued to them. One has steel as the backer, another is rubber, another is foam.
I also use a hand sanding fixture i got from Ed Braun, basically you can just C clamp your blade down to a board.
I use windex as a lubricant. Criss cross direction of hand sanding. And my most recent "discovery" which is so simple its stupid:
Speed! Yeah , make sure there is no danger of running your hand into the edge or tip and then go fast, not really hard...just fast.
Oh and I fly through paper...easily can go through 4 sheets (per side) of 220 grit on a 8" chef knife.
Click to expand...
Thank you guys! Im for sure going to get some rhynowet redline soon, I just bought this grinder so Im a little busted and wanting to use up the paper I have before ordering a bunch online, but about to sell a gun to get some more supplies. Im currently using a piece of wood that I sanded as flat as possible for my rough grits then doing my final grit with a piece of wood with a thick leather backing. Im going to start buying much better belts too. Here is the results I have so far, 600 grit. It took about 4 hours a side for just sanding after tempuring and a still need to do my straight pulls, but im pretty damn happy and its worth the work. (Also Im really proud of my swedges on this recurve clip point knife so I wanted to show it off :) )
kFIdQFc.jpg
 
Blade looks good buffalo
All good advice here I'll just add to try enjoy hand sanding
After my first full day of hand sanding I thought this is hellish but now I love it
Pop on some music and get the coffee going and just enjoy it
Plus it's a good work out
 
buffalo01 said:
Thank you guys! Im for sure going to get some rhynowet redline soon, I just bought this grinder so Im a little busted and wanting to use up the paper I have before ordering a bunch online, but about to sell a gun to get some more supplies. Im currently using a piece of wood that I sanded as flat as possible for my rough grits then doing my final grit with a piece of wood with a thick leather backing. Im going to start buying much better belts too. Here is the results I have so far, 600 grit. It took about 4 hours a side for just sanding after tempuring and a still need to do my straight pulls, but im pretty damn happy and its worth the work. (Also Im really proud of my swedges on this recurve clip point knife so I wanted to show it off :) )
kFIdQFc.jpg
Click to expand...

I can shoot you a slab of 220 rhyno so you can see the difference if you want, it’s convincing. Lol
 
DustinY said:
I can shoot you a slab of 220 rhyno so you can see the difference if you want, it’s convincing. Lol
Click to expand...
No its fine! I trust all the testiments I see. That's very kind of you though.

John mc c said:
Blade looks good buffalo
All good advice here I'll just add to try enjoy hand sanding
After my first full day of hand sanding I thought this is hellish but now I love it
Pop on some music and get the coffee going and just enjoy it
Plus it's a good work out
Click to expand...
Thanks brother, I think of it as physical therapy haha. I'm rethinking taking it to 2k though...
 
The big thing that eats time is not changing paper when you should. You can spend all day trying to use as little paper as possible. When I hand sand I get a handful of strokes per strip and change it. Once the paper looses that fresh bite I toss it and grab a new one. Also you have to use a liquid when hand sanding. I really like windex for this. Keep the blade wet and give the swarf a wipe off.
 
JTknives said:
The big thing that eats time is not changing paper when you should. You can spend all day trying to use as little paper as possible. When I hand sand I get a handful of strokes per strip and change it. Once the paper looses that fresh bite I toss it and grab a new one. Also you have to use a liquid when hand sanding. I really like windex for this. Keep the blade wet and give the swarf a wipe off.
Click to expand...


I BLOW through paper and it still takes forever. Also on knife talk all of them have been sanding dry! Mareko said he does 100%, Geoff tried it but stated he still feels it’s better when using a lubricant and I think Craig is dry?!?

Blew my mind ha.
 
Using a wide block for bigger blades will make the things go faster as well.
 
It's been mentioned, but do the heavy lifting on the grinder. Even on hardened steel, for an 8" blade I'll spend 30 mins or less on a side to get to a clean 400 grit hand finish. That includes the doing the clip and shaping the plunges. The higher you go on the grinder the less you have to do by hand.

It does take practice and I'm not perfect at it, but I get satisfactory results that way.

Sam
 
Good sandpaper. I ordered the wrong kind in one grit size and it is a good reminder how important good paper is.
I use free paint stirring sticks as sanding blocks.
After the machine I start with cheap chinese (sharpening)stones. Just paper after that.
Lube with soapy water or windex. WD40 for the final grit size.
Try and enjoy it. Make sure to sit comfortable and play music you enjoy.
To me now it is sen to slowly see all scratches disappear and see the steel becomming more and more shiny.
 
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