Another post go me to thinking, how do you guys sharpen your knives and why? I like to hand sharpen my knives, but Im not opposed to using a system and will be getting one. I personally get satisfaction from hand sharpening a knife to a keen edge. I feel like I have done something that takes time to learn and master and am proud of myself when I acomplish a shaving edge by hand. But Im also kind of lazy at times and would rather have something that does the job faster with less chance of having 1 bad drag that sets your work back 30 minutes. What are your thoughts?
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Hand sharpening vs. Using a system
- Thread starter NateHodge
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Whatever gets the job done. Recurves are no fun on whetstones.
I do use stones rather than a system though, but that may very well be because I started sharpening on J-knives.
I do use stones rather than a system though, but that may very well be because I started sharpening on J-knives.
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Just use a scythe stone on recurves. 
Freehand sharpening pretty much exclusively, here.
Freehand sharpening pretty much exclusively, here.
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For me I don't really care who use's what and how so long as the job get's done and you are happy with the end result.
That being said I prefer a guided system because if you don't hand sharpen enough and put off sharpening for a while you start to loose it where as with a guided system you never really loose it,another factor for people is that most people can get a sharper more accurate edge from a guided system.
I myself went with Tsprof and own 2 of them and if the cop's showed up at my and tried to take them it would be a fight to the death and I'm not kidding about that in away shape or form no one screw's with my sharpener's witch are also my passion,I went with the Tsprof because I was sick of the KME's short stones rubbers not always staying glued to the jaws and also not much stone selection for them as well,also the Tsprof is very nice the way you adjust the angle and you have the second adjustment to really fine tune the adjustment of the angle and also like that they have a wide selection of different clamp's as well and if I were going to buy another system it would most likely be a Hapstone providing it had a clamping system and not a table.
The Tsprof may cost a bit more but they are worth it and also worth the wait and saying that from what I understand they also purchased new machine's to produce more sharpeners and other stuff.
That being said I prefer a guided system because if you don't hand sharpen enough and put off sharpening for a while you start to loose it where as with a guided system you never really loose it,another factor for people is that most people can get a sharper more accurate edge from a guided system.
I myself went with Tsprof and own 2 of them and if the cop's showed up at my and tried to take them it would be a fight to the death and I'm not kidding about that in away shape or form no one screw's with my sharpener's witch are also my passion,I went with the Tsprof because I was sick of the KME's short stones rubbers not always staying glued to the jaws and also not much stone selection for them as well,also the Tsprof is very nice the way you adjust the angle and you have the second adjustment to really fine tune the adjustment of the angle and also like that they have a wide selection of different clamp's as well and if I were going to buy another system it would most likely be a Hapstone providing it had a clamping system and not a table.
The Tsprof may cost a bit more but they are worth it and also worth the wait and saying that from what I understand they also purchased new machine's to produce more sharpeners and other stuff.
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The '1 bad drag' aspect can be managed and minimized. In freehand sharpening, there's inevitably some variation in held angle. But I figured out for myself, the variation can be biased in such a way that it doesn't degrade your edge. Your grip and hold on the knife can be biased to always keep the angle just a hair on the low side at the beginning of the honing stroke, and then finishing the pass just 'kissing the cheeks' of the apex. The variation in held angle will slightly convex the bevels behind your edge, but will be confined there, without doing much, if any, damage at the apex itself.
Put another way, the 'arc' of the variation in held angle has limits at each end. Those limits are determined by your own hands & wrists, physically in how your hold on the angle varies through the pass. There's a 'low end' of the arc, where the shoulders of the bevels will be dragging, and a 'high end' where the apex will be rotating into the stone. So, knowing those limits of your physical hold on the knife, you can bias your hold so the 'high end' of the arc is never too high. That's how you can control it.
The real key in freehand sharpening is developing (by practice) the feel for when the apex just begins to make contact on the stone's surface; it'll bite into the grit, and you'll feel the change in friction on the stone when it does. When the angle is too low, you'll also be able to feel the shoulders of the bevels kind of 'skimming' (noisily, roughly) over the grit. When the angle becomes flush to the bevels, it's gets quieter and slicker. Then, when the angle starts to rise just enough to make the apex 'bite' into the stone, there's a different sensation altogether. It'll feel more aggressive, and you can tell the stone is really removing steel at the edge. As you develop the feel via your fingertips, you'll begin to feel the transition from that noisy, rough 'skittering' (as I call it) of the shoulders over the grit, to the slicker & quieter 'skating' effect felt when flush to the bevels, and then to the aggressive 'bite' of the apex into the stone. When you get better at detecting that 3-part transition, you train your hands to ease up on pressure just as you're transitioning into that 'biting' sensation as the cheeks of the apex begin to dig. Easing up in pressure at that precise moment is how the bad effects of any 'bad drag' can be minimized and/or eliminated (eventually).
Literally EVERYTHING in freehand sharpening is dependant on that feel. So, it makes sense to develop it as much as you can. And practicing often with a laserbeam focus on that 'feel' is how it'll evolve and improve.
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One of the best definition I have ever read, similar to what
HeavyHanded
also emphasizes, the feel of shoulder, flat and apex. 
HeavyHanded
also emphasizes, the feel of shoulder, flat and apex. 
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Lately I set back bevels with an edge pro, and then just maintain a micro with the sharp maker. A few swipes here and there keeps my knives sharp this way. I've also been messing around with a Pac Salt serrated on the sharp maker, sliding the blade down the corners like the instructions say. Made me cringe at first, seemed wrong, but it produces a sharp knife.
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Night and day.
I can hand sharpen. I hand sharpen drill bits all the time and carbide and cobalt cutters.
When it comes to my knives and my woodworking tools :
I will ALWAYS use a jig or "system".
The results in accurate edge geometry, edge sharpness, edge durability, ease of touch up, polish and pretty . . . I could gush on and on . . .
. . . well the quality of edge is just buckets better and more satisfying but then I like an M4 pocket knife edge that is hair whittling and after a few days of use comes back to that with just a few extremely light passes on my finest Edge Pro stone or say an A2 woodworking blade, very heavily used that comes back to hair whittling in 30 or forty strokes on my Shapton Pro stones using the Varitas jig.
Precision metal machining (extremely sharp edges) is best done with a precision milling machine (sharpening jig). One can produce a feature on a hunk of metal accurate to hundred thousands if not millionths of an inch by rubbing it on some stones while holding it in your hand and going by feel and by eye and measuring it, many, many, many times to check progress and accuracy.
But . . .
. . . well . . . I suppose it just depends on how you like to use your mental energy.
PS : meaning I chuck up a knife or a hand tool woodworking blade. Go through the routine motions, almost brainlessly, and when done I have never checked the edge for sharpness or checked my progress and when I've gone through the progression of stones I KNOW the edge will whittle hair.
Done.
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Hand sharpening is generally faster and you learn a skill that will allow you to sharpen pretty much anything including tools that don't work well on many jigs, such as bow saws, hatchets. I don't think there are any examples of sharpening jigs if you go back 150 years, though the tooling and engineering know-how were certainly up to the task. It isn't necessary for good results, but practice and understanding are.
I sometimes use a jig when sharpening for $ as the cosmetics do turn out a bit better and I don't have to be 100% in terms of grip, angle control, and the edge still turns out great. But...my sharpening jig allows me to use whatever stones I want and use the entire stone. Most systems are not going to offer what I want and have inherent limitations of stone selection/size and geometry.
I sometimes use a jig when sharpening for $ as the cosmetics do turn out a bit better and I don't have to be 100% in terms of grip, angle control, and the edge still turns out great. But...my sharpening jig allows me to use whatever stones I want and use the entire stone. Most systems are not going to offer what I want and have inherent limitations of stone selection/size and geometry.
91bravo
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Exclusively freehand sharpening here too. Been doing if for over 30 years and with freehand, you can go anywhere in the world and sharpen a knife. With guided system, you have to go there, or lug the system around with you. If going for a week-long stalking hunt, where many game animals are processed, you're going to want to know how to freehand sharpen your knives.
Sharpening tools have been in use during very long time. People that need straight sharp edges need a sharpening tool to get it.
Here are some exapmles on sharpening tools from the dark ages
This is a grinding tools for sword, but also other edged tools can be sharpened on this type of tool.
The picture desceibe hiw to make a fuller. The tool they use give the wanted angle and the antler hängning on the grinding table are full if fat mixed with Quartz sand in wanted grit.
This rool work as the rool above but are for longer edges. The tool theyvhold in their hands are sifferent from picture 1 above - and here they sharpen the edge in wanted angle.
One way to make ans maintain a controled real convex edge with wanted edge angle is fo use a oval grinding wheel.
Hand sharpening is, in my mind, a myth developed in modern time. Think about it. All hand sharpen people admit today that it is impossible to hold a constant angle with free hand sharpening. When knowing that you also understand that it is impossible to make a flat edge by freehand = the edge WILL be convex. With a sharpening tool the edge WILL be perfectly flat IF the knife are fixed on the grinding table AND if the sharpener have a fixed angle locked innthe same tool. Then it CANNOT be anything else then perfectly flat edge.
If a bended, or angled, guide rod guiden the sharpener the edge WILL be true convex. If the tool is advanced the convex edge can be made in wanted degrees on the cutting edge and with wanted convex sphere.
So, sharpening tools have been in use for at least 1000 years = as long there was a need for perfectly flat edges - and for to maintain those flat edges.
If you, by freehand, are happy with your edges ans they work good for you - keep sharpen as you do, there is no need for you to change anything
If you think that I am wrong - and that you really cannons a constant angle sueingvfreehand hand sharpening, you need to build your self this simple tool and use it - and you WILL find out what I am talking about above.
It is a simple tool, a laser pen,mounted with a magnet onnthe upper blade side with a "hinge" that alloude you to use the wanted angle, lets say 15 degreea. Lock the hinge in 15 degrees and put up a "target" 54 cm from the knife edge = 1 cm = 1 degree on the target. Start the laser and start the sharpening - and look at the red dot and hiw it moves vertically, every cm up, or down, tells you that you are 1 degree wrong onnthe edge...
I freehand sharpen for about 40 years, after that I have use sharpening tools becouse I have needs for precision edges.
Thomas
Here are some exapmles on sharpening tools from the dark ages
This is a grinding tools for sword, but also other edged tools can be sharpened on this type of tool.
The picture desceibe hiw to make a fuller. The tool they use give the wanted angle and the antler hängning on the grinding table are full if fat mixed with Quartz sand in wanted grit.
This rool work as the rool above but are for longer edges. The tool theyvhold in their hands are sifferent from picture 1 above - and here they sharpen the edge in wanted angle.
One way to make ans maintain a controled real convex edge with wanted edge angle is fo use a oval grinding wheel.
Hand sharpening is, in my mind, a myth developed in modern time. Think about it. All hand sharpen people admit today that it is impossible to hold a constant angle with free hand sharpening. When knowing that you also understand that it is impossible to make a flat edge by freehand = the edge WILL be convex. With a sharpening tool the edge WILL be perfectly flat IF the knife are fixed on the grinding table AND if the sharpener have a fixed angle locked innthe same tool. Then it CANNOT be anything else then perfectly flat edge.
If a bended, or angled, guide rod guiden the sharpener the edge WILL be true convex. If the tool is advanced the convex edge can be made in wanted degrees on the cutting edge and with wanted convex sphere.
So, sharpening tools have been in use for at least 1000 years = as long there was a need for perfectly flat edges - and for to maintain those flat edges.
If you, by freehand, are happy with your edges ans they work good for you - keep sharpen as you do, there is no need for you to change anything
If you think that I am wrong - and that you really cannons a constant angle sueingvfreehand hand sharpening, you need to build your self this simple tool and use it - and you WILL find out what I am talking about above.
It is a simple tool, a laser pen,mounted with a magnet onnthe upper blade side with a "hinge" that alloude you to use the wanted angle, lets say 15 degreea. Lock the hinge in 15 degrees and put up a "target" 54 cm from the knife edge = 1 cm = 1 degree on the target. Start the laser and start the sharpening - and look at the red dot and hiw it moves vertically, every cm up, or down, tells you that you are 1 degree wrong onnthe edge...
I freehand sharpen for about 40 years, after that I have use sharpening tools becouse I have needs for precision edges.
Thomas
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I agree with much of the above in principle, but there is a big difference between a sharpening tool and a guide. Even the craftsmen in above images are not using a guide on the actual stone or tool, they are simply increasing grinding speed and leverage.
With the edge retention of period steel it probably did not make sense to lock anything in a jig as the extra time to develop the widgets and clamp the tool wasn't worth the effort. Using a guide often doesn't really make a better performing edge - CATRA builds a bit of convex into their power sharpeners as an extra option, they found the edge lasts longer with approx 2° convex - about what a good freehander can manage.
With the edge retention of period steel it probably did not make sense to lock anything in a jig as the extra time to develop the widgets and clamp the tool wasn't worth the effort. Using a guide often doesn't really make a better performing edge - CATRA builds a bit of convex into their power sharpeners as an extra option, they found the edge lasts longer with approx 2° convex - about what a good freehander can manage.
This is a grinding tool from the stoneage, this grinding tool is around 6000 years old - and we have dound many thousends of them.
This are stone age hollow chissels, they was sharpened in tools like on the picture above (sharpened on their downside).
This tools are the oldest tools we know about. Theyvare simple - but effective and they will give nice edges - and it is possible to get a constant angle by liften up the back end of the axe, or chissel, so that it slides along the slits in correct angle - but we so not know if they did that or not.
All edged tools have notvthe same size - so there was a need for different sizes of slitses as you. can se on this picture.
So, stone age people use sharpening tools in different sizes for axes and chissels for 6000 years ago and we have drawings if sharpening tools that are adound 6-700 years old also - ao I think I can say that sharpening tools have been in use for 6000 years by people that have needs for as perfect edges as possible and that thay have use the best tecnuiqe there was in the time they lived.
Stoneage people had much sharper edges then we have today on their knifes. Their knifes was made in obsidian and flint. Obsidian edges was onnthe cutting edge 1 molecyle thick, our thinnest edges today are adound 15 molecyles thick.
Stone age people did not grind their knifes to get them sharper - theyvgeindbtheir edges robgetcthem duller = 1 molecyle edge is very thin and brittle, they broke of veey easy. So, stoneage people grind their knifes to get more material in the edge = higher edge angle - and then they maintain that edge angle.
For 6000 years ago the stoneage people understood that an edge shall only be as sharp it need to be for its purpouse - not sharper, or duller, then that. sharpness shall always be balanced with retention ao that the edge hold tonfisk with as long time as possible.
Thomas
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If you have a blade 1.5 inches wide and you're trying to put a 20 degree angle on one side of the edge, you'll have to hold the spine of the blade exactly 0.513 inches off the stone.
If that spine drifts above or below that height by less than a 20th of an inch, you'll be varying your angle by plus or minus 2 degrees.
Even those small movements in spine height will change the angle on your edge from the 20 degree target, which you will get on a guided system, to an edge with angles varying from 18-22 degrees on both sides of the apex. Larger movements -- more than 1/20th of an inch, will induce even larger variances in the edge angles.
Plus, you'll have to change the height to account for the belly.
Experienced freehanders can certainly put an awesome edge on a knife. Inexperienced sharpeners can get a working edge with a bit of freehand practice. But guided systems can give all of us a keen, precision edge.
If that spine drifts above or below that height by less than a 20th of an inch, you'll be varying your angle by plus or minus 2 degrees.
Even those small movements in spine height will change the angle on your edge from the 20 degree target, which you will get on a guided system, to an edge with angles varying from 18-22 degrees on both sides of the apex. Larger movements -- more than 1/20th of an inch, will induce even larger variances in the edge angles.
Plus, you'll have to change the height to account for the belly.
Experienced freehanders can certainly put an awesome edge on a knife. Inexperienced sharpeners can get a working edge with a bit of freehand practice. But guided systems can give all of us a keen, precision edge.
If you study tye second picture closly, the man to the left use two tools in his hands. You can se how he holds them - and he can absolutley hold a constant angle working like that.
In freehand sharpening you cannot come below 3 degrees wobble per side of the edge. The first time the wobble is neaely impossible to se - but it starts there. The dripping destroyed the stone - and the first dripp starts the process.
A very simple sharpening tool is to glue a sharpener on a stick. Layvthe knife on a tables end, use a pivot of another piece of wood, a stone, or similar, put the "guide rod" on this piece and press the sharpener on the edge. Make a mark where the pivot point stands - and you can maintain the edge innthe same edge angle.
Move the pivot point forwards ans you get a steeper edge angle,make a mark there on the table and you can maintain that edge also. It is very simple - but also very effective - and if made with care - you can make precision edges and maintain them without changing the edge angle.
You say above that sharpening tools sid not exist for 100-150 years ago. I think that I have prove that they did, some have we found, some we have drawings on. People have allways use sharpening tools and guides to get as good edges as possible and they understood allready during the stoneage that a sharpening tool was necessarry. It is not a matter of time, stoneage people did have time (it is US rodayvthat sont have time) it is about precission and the wanted quality on the edge.
A edge that not have the same quality all along the edge will have weak points on the edge = parts where the stone edge have less material in the edge and behind the edge. Weak points was bad to have - so what thevatoneage people like to have (and also we) is a edge that hold. To hold - and fo find out hiw hard the rool can be used - the edge must be a quality edge with the same thickness all along the edge. For hard stone and vulcanic glas - and our very hard steel today - this is very important. We can grind our edges whennthey chip on weak points - but the stoneage people must work for days to regrind their chipped edge.
We discuss different type if steel today. Stoneage people discussed different type of flint - and when they found a good quality type of flint they try ti allways use the same type.
In south Sweden in parish Skane there is flintmines fron the stoneage. The flint ther are black abd have an extream fine "grit" and can be made very sharp (about 6 molecyles thick cutting edges) and this flint was exported all over Scandinavia and have also been found in Russia (exported from those flint mines i Skane). Som the stoneage people search for the best quality off flint for there tools.
Thomas
In freehand sharpening you cannot come below 3 degrees wobble per side of the edge. The first time the wobble is neaely impossible to se - but it starts there. The dripping destroyed the stone - and the first dripp starts the process.
A very simple sharpening tool is to glue a sharpener on a stick. Layvthe knife on a tables end, use a pivot of another piece of wood, a stone, or similar, put the "guide rod" on this piece and press the sharpener on the edge. Make a mark where the pivot point stands - and you can maintain the edge innthe same edge angle.
Move the pivot point forwards ans you get a steeper edge angle,make a mark there on the table and you can maintain that edge also. It is very simple - but also very effective - and if made with care - you can make precision edges and maintain them without changing the edge angle.
You say above that sharpening tools sid not exist for 100-150 years ago. I think that I have prove that they did, some have we found, some we have drawings on. People have allways use sharpening tools and guides to get as good edges as possible and they understood allready during the stoneage that a sharpening tool was necessarry. It is not a matter of time, stoneage people did have time (it is US rodayvthat sont have time) it is about precission and the wanted quality on the edge.
A edge that not have the same quality all along the edge will have weak points on the edge = parts where the stone edge have less material in the edge and behind the edge. Weak points was bad to have - so what thevatoneage people like to have (and also we) is a edge that hold. To hold - and fo find out hiw hard the rool can be used - the edge must be a quality edge with the same thickness all along the edge. For hard stone and vulcanic glas - and our very hard steel today - this is very important. We can grind our edges whennthey chip on weak points - but the stoneage people must work for days to regrind their chipped edge.
We discuss different type if steel today. Stoneage people discussed different type of flint - and when they found a good quality type of flint they try ti allways use the same type.
In south Sweden in parish Skane there is flintmines fron the stoneage. The flint ther are black abd have an extream fine "grit" and can be made very sharp (about 6 molecyles thick cutting edges) and this flint was exported all over Scandinavia and have also been found in Russia (exported from those flint mines i Skane). Som the stoneage people search for the best quality off flint for there tools.
Thomas
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Twindog,
The differance in thickness on the cutting edge between 10 and 11 degrees are less then 1/1000 part if 1 millimeter.
The picture below shows an edge that I first made 100% flat, then I make a change of the angle with 1/100 part of 1 degree and made a "second bevel". I move the sharpener diagonal in different directions so that the second bevel can be seen. This is possible to do with my sharpening tool Chef.
No one need to adjust an edge with 1/100 parts if 1 degree. But, to be able to do that also tells that I can adjust an edge exactly for example 0,25 degrees, or 0,5 degrees.
When knowing exactly what I am doing I can also evaluate what I have done - and compare with other things I have done.
Look not only on the edge, look also at the back edge line.
I use a Norton diamond sharpener in 25-30 mikron when I grind this edge.
Thomas
The differance in thickness on the cutting edge between 10 and 11 degrees are less then 1/1000 part if 1 millimeter.
The picture below shows an edge that I first made 100% flat, then I make a change of the angle with 1/100 part of 1 degree and made a "second bevel". I move the sharpener diagonal in different directions so that the second bevel can be seen. This is possible to do with my sharpening tool Chef.
No one need to adjust an edge with 1/100 parts if 1 degree. But, to be able to do that also tells that I can adjust an edge exactly for example 0,25 degrees, or 0,5 degrees.
When knowing exactly what I am doing I can also evaluate what I have done - and compare with other things I have done.
Look not only on the edge, look also at the back edge line.
I use a Norton diamond sharpener in 25-30 mikron when I grind this edge.
Thomas
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"Perfect is the enemy of good". For cutting tools that truly require or strongly benefit from being jig-sharpened, by all means do it. However, the vast majority of common cutting tools do not see a significant benefit from going through the rigmarole of setting up the jig when a few quick freehand strokes produce a suitable edge for the tasks required of it. It's about keeping things in dimension and applying sharpening equipment to tools as appropriate.
FortyTwoBlades,
When I am out in the Forest or up in the mountains I of cause maintain my edges by freehand, I do not carry a 3 kilo sharpening tool with me. I did not think I needed to explain that.
When I am home - i use my tool. This becouse that I am lazy. My tool stand on a bench and are ready to use all the time. If not, it do not take many seconds to put it up becose of its construction.
as Inweote above, 1 degree change on the cutting edge add, or take away, less then 1/1000 part if 1 degree if the material innthe edge, we wobble at least 3 degrees when we sharpen by freehand. If I take away material from the cutting edge - I must remove material from the complete edge ro correct what I remove from the edge - or accept that my edge do not have the same angle along the edge...
For me it is simple. If I do not know what edge angle my knife have - and I change the edge angle, I do not know where I started, I do not know where I Landed and I so not know how long I have traveled - and what can I learn from not knowing what I just have done?
When I know where I started and landed I also know how long I have traveled - and knowing what I have just hade done makes that I can evaluate what I have done - and from that can I learn, and that learning adds up with other things I have learn before.
For example can I learn how a edge in 20 degrees total works compare with a edge in 22 degrees total - and if I work in the same material I can understand the differance how the different edges work in the material and how much power I need to use and how much the edges warns - and from that can I also learn.
Most people have not a clue whatvedge angle their knifes have. They are happy when they have learn to grind the edge so thatvthe edge two sides meet eachother so that the edge become sharp - and they dont have a chance to compare edge angles, power in use,mhon the edge warns ir how fast the edge gets dull in different materials. The egde just gets dull - so they grind the two sides together again.
There is a lot more about shatpening that just know to how to get the two sides of the edge to meet properly, at least in my mind.
For me shall a knife be as sharp it need to be for its purpouse, not sharper, or duller, then that. But that is me. I have absolutley no demands that other people shall have the same opinion as me.
It is a simple sentence - it tells that sharpness must allways be balanced with retention. That is also why we have scalpells and razors - and shoemaker knifes, they are different levell of sharpness, balanced with needed retention + the blade design are made to make the work as easy as possible.
If the sergent change knife with the shoemaker - both will have. Hell to do their jobs.
So, if I have a good hunting knife and I sharpen the hunting knife so that I can shave with it - I have change the knifes purpouse, the hunting knife have become a razor - and it is now to sharp to be a hunting knife. This is old traditional knife knowing and understanding here in Scandinavia, known by most traditional knife users = about 5-10 % of the population here. 90% of the population lives in citys and have not a clue about traditional knife use
Traditionals here use edges between 18-26 degrees. Citypeople use edges in about 35-40 degrees becouse they cut and slice in plastic, nylon, cardboard, det hard wood, and so on = typical city magerials.
Traditionals cut and slice in wet fresh wood, leather, huds, fresh meat, fresh fish, and ao on - and can use lower edge angles. They have 35 degree edges on their axes.
This is a normal development for knifes,ntheur design and edges comes from needs. City material are harder= city edges are steeper = balance between sharpness and retention...
I live out in the Forest with many miles of Forest around my house - and my knifes are traditional knifes with traditional edges. My chopping knife has convex edge in 26 degree total - and are used in fresh wet wood only. My axes hold 35 degrees and are used innthe same material. My carpenter axes have flat edges and have 18-24 degree edges (different axes). I use the axe, or knife, that is best for what I shall do.
From this I write and speak. I like to spread old traditional knife knowledge to them that are interested. Here I have explain that sharpening tools are at least 6000 years old and that they have developed duringvthe millenians - most free hand people do not know this becouse they think that they do not wobble at all
Go baxk 10 years and read in this forums member then say that they did not wobble and that convex edges was superial and better then all other edge types
There is more knowledge and less myths today.
Thomas
When I am out in the Forest or up in the mountains I of cause maintain my edges by freehand, I do not carry a 3 kilo sharpening tool with me. I did not think I needed to explain that.
When I am home - i use my tool. This becouse that I am lazy. My tool stand on a bench and are ready to use all the time. If not, it do not take many seconds to put it up becose of its construction.
as Inweote above, 1 degree change on the cutting edge add, or take away, less then 1/1000 part if 1 degree if the material innthe edge, we wobble at least 3 degrees when we sharpen by freehand. If I take away material from the cutting edge - I must remove material from the complete edge ro correct what I remove from the edge - or accept that my edge do not have the same angle along the edge...
For me it is simple. If I do not know what edge angle my knife have - and I change the edge angle, I do not know where I started, I do not know where I Landed and I so not know how long I have traveled - and what can I learn from not knowing what I just have done?
When I know where I started and landed I also know how long I have traveled - and knowing what I have just hade done makes that I can evaluate what I have done - and from that can I learn, and that learning adds up with other things I have learn before.
For example can I learn how a edge in 20 degrees total works compare with a edge in 22 degrees total - and if I work in the same material I can understand the differance how the different edges work in the material and how much power I need to use and how much the edges warns - and from that can I also learn.
Most people have not a clue whatvedge angle their knifes have. They are happy when they have learn to grind the edge so thatvthe edge two sides meet eachother so that the edge become sharp - and they dont have a chance to compare edge angles, power in use,mhon the edge warns ir how fast the edge gets dull in different materials. The egde just gets dull - so they grind the two sides together again.
There is a lot more about shatpening that just know to how to get the two sides of the edge to meet properly, at least in my mind.
For me shall a knife be as sharp it need to be for its purpouse, not sharper, or duller, then that. But that is me. I have absolutley no demands that other people shall have the same opinion as me.
It is a simple sentence - it tells that sharpness must allways be balanced with retention. That is also why we have scalpells and razors - and shoemaker knifes, they are different levell of sharpness, balanced with needed retention + the blade design are made to make the work as easy as possible.
If the sergent change knife with the shoemaker - both will have. Hell to do their jobs.
So, if I have a good hunting knife and I sharpen the hunting knife so that I can shave with it - I have change the knifes purpouse, the hunting knife have become a razor - and it is now to sharp to be a hunting knife. This is old traditional knife knowing and understanding here in Scandinavia, known by most traditional knife users = about 5-10 % of the population here. 90% of the population lives in citys and have not a clue about traditional knife use
Traditionals here use edges between 18-26 degrees. Citypeople use edges in about 35-40 degrees becouse they cut and slice in plastic, nylon, cardboard, det hard wood, and so on = typical city magerials.
Traditionals cut and slice in wet fresh wood, leather, huds, fresh meat, fresh fish, and ao on - and can use lower edge angles. They have 35 degree edges on their axes.
This is a normal development for knifes,ntheur design and edges comes from needs. City material are harder= city edges are steeper = balance between sharpness and retention...
I live out in the Forest with many miles of Forest around my house - and my knifes are traditional knifes with traditional edges. My chopping knife has convex edge in 26 degree total - and are used in fresh wet wood only. My axes hold 35 degrees and are used innthe same material. My carpenter axes have flat edges and have 18-24 degree edges (different axes). I use the axe, or knife, that is best for what I shall do.
From this I write and speak. I like to spread old traditional knife knowledge to them that are interested. Here I have explain that sharpening tools are at least 6000 years old and that they have developed duringvthe millenians - most free hand people do not know this becouse they think that they do not wobble at all
Go baxk 10 years and read in this forums member then say that they did not wobble and that convex edges was superial and better then all other edge types
There is more knowledge and less myths today.
Thomas
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Is impossible to tell from the drawings if the widget in question merely provided better leverage or if it maintained a constant reference angle. Given the size and the materials involved I'd say with a lot of confidence the answer is more of a leverage amplifier than anything that would allow you to simply apply force and the tool holds an angle with precision. Jigs that are not 100% stable are often worse than none at all.
I have noticed with my own jigs that if you apply enough pressure to flex the blade, all bets are off. And many blade geometries will allow flex at relatively low force. The next stone in the progression has to simply do more work. Also, the precision of a grind is limited by the mean variable in the height of the abrasives. How precise are we talking here? The act of grinding steel using a pivot arm at fixed height will mean the angle is less acute when you finish than what you started with - it changes as you work unless you are tweaking the relative positions as you go (this is actually what a good freehand sharpener is already doing).
Personally I believe good freehand drops down to approx 1.5 degrees, and this can be verified to some extent by going back and forth from jig to freehand. In any event, CATRA and others have shown that a slight convex lasts longer anyway, at least for offhand cutting. Once you clamp the blade into a tool of some sort, precision needs do go up but this is not a concern for offhand cutting.
As stated, jigs and guides are great if perfect cosmetics are a concern or if the operator is tired, the handle of a given tool is awkward for sharpening, if the guide is actually faster than freehand in the absence of powered abrasives. They have their place and I do use them - I just finished wringing out one I built specifically for doing hair shears manually on waterstones that works great. The edge isn't notably better than what I can do freehand, but in this case it does minimize steel loss and standardizes the result.
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