Handgun calibers...

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Aug 23, 2004
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Hey, I was just wondering if any of you gun knuts knew of any sources debating the real difference in stopping power between 9mm, .40, and .45? I've seen different things that go each way, and none have been terribly good or objective. In a real fight, would the extra power of the .45 be worth the weight, smaller mag. cap., and higher recoil? Or is a 9mm just too wussy to get the job done in your opinions. I'm a gun newbie and really don't know.

Thanks, guys!

Nam
 
I think anyone with experience will agree that accurate placement of rounds in the target is more important than the caliber.
Many many people have been killed with a single .22 in the head. (Just ask the Mossad.)

Having said that, there are some differences, but in reality I doubt the differences will matter too much. My friend Mayhem was shot once in the chest and killed instantly by a psycho using a 9mm. Mayhem was 6'6" tall and 350 pounds.

The 10mm was originally supposed to be the wonder round that had the speed of a 9mm and the weight of a 45, but it was so hard on the pistol that they came up with a reduced power round called the 40.
(You guys can check my facts, but I think thats a fair summarization)

As a compromise between heavy bullets and fast bullets, the 40 does a really good job and I would love to have one.
Of course, if offered a 9mm or a 45 I would love to have one of them as well.

Aim straight and you'll be fine.
 
Way back when, the .45 was brought into being due to the short commings of the .38 in actual combat, and it built quite an enviable reputation for being a fight stopper. Somthing that the .38 never enjoyed. Now think about this. .38 is actually,.357. 9mm-.355. Even smaller. .45ACP-.455. While it is arguably true that modern bullet desighn makes the 9mm more effective. It depends on proper expantion, and this simply doesn't always happen. Especially when having to penetrate heavy cloathing, The .45 and .40 also have modern bullet desighns, however, by shear diamiter, they are already larger and with greater mass, than can be expected even with perfect performance from a 9mm. An old calvary officer once said, "Shoot a man with a .45 and if he is still standing, walk around back an see what is holding him up" Sage advice.. I've survived two shoot outs now, and wish I had listened. I now carry a Cocked and locked .45,, Period. Thanks for reading. M. Lovett
 
Forgot to mention, In one situation All I had was a North American Arms .22 Hide out piece. Loaded with stingers, I put three rounds in the heart and one through the eye into the Brain. The brain shot worked. When shot thru the heart the Assalent laughed. Pucker time. Later autopsy show that one third of the heart was destroyed. Ergo perfect shot pacement. It didn't even slow him down. No drugs, just adrenilen. I Lost friends Here in Killeen in the Luby's massacar. a good friend and ret. officer put three rounds of .40 into the guy. with no effect. care to guess what he carries now. -----never confuse stopping power with killing power. the shots to the heart of my assalent were deadly. and in a couple of minutes he would have expired.. Doesn't. Matter, Your only consern is to STOP THE ASSALENT NOW!!!!! How many's been killed with what only matters in war and murder satistics. The 9mm has a lousy track record. There are not enough recorded street use of the .40, t make a clear judgement at this time. At least that's the FBI'S call so far. ----Thanks for reading, M. Lovett
 
I may be old fasioned, but seems to me "high capacity mag" is just a substitute for "poor marksmanship". I just read an article in American Handgunner Magazine that stated that records of the New York Police Department showed that in the majority of gunfights involving their police officers five or less shots were fired. With the new high performance bullets now available, the 9mm is a much more effective round than it used to be. However, these same bullets are also available for the 40 S&W and 45 Auto. The 40 S&W is supposed to be as effective as the 45, but with the reduced recoil equivalent to the 9mm. With that being said, if I'm going to put MY life on the line, I want the biggest that I can ACCURATELY shoot. My CCW is an Officers Mdl Colt 45 with a 7 rd mag carried cocked & locked.
 
I like the 45, and obviously Mr. Lovett does too, but this isn't really the kind of forum where people post boilerplate statements the negate the possibility that anyone else's opinion might be correct.
If anyone thinks that picking a certain caliber and carrying that kind of gun is going to be all they need to be safe in a dangerous environment, that is a gross error. The fallen people in Atlanta ought to be proof enough of that. A 9mm can drop big men in their tracks in the hands of a basically untrained person. The fallen people in Ohio ought to be proof enough of that.

Awareness, adaptability and unlimited thinking are man's greatest tools of self defense.

Unlimited thinking requires you to say " well, maybe there is more than one kind of useful handgun for self defense."
 
I prefer large diameter calibres. A handgun cannot equal a rifle, but it can deliver a heavy slug with a large diameter.

I would not feel helpless with a Nine, though I do not own one.

Like many here, I've studied and read about ballistics and terminal performance for many years. I believe the data favors what I've said.


munk
 
(I worked Armed security in a jewelry center in Little Saigon) I carried a .357. Most of the guys I worked with carried hi-cap 9mms. I got ribbed a few times for carrying the "cannon" or "six shooter" but I trusted the .357. YMMV

Frank
 
Danny, I didn't mean to imply that my opinion was the only correct one. However you still seem to be confusing stopping power with lethality. Yes these poor people died, but how quickly, As I said before, My attaker was still comming after rounds to the heart. A Now deceased friend, X-CIA once put all 14 center mass rounds into an advancing perp with almost no effect. Did the 9mm kill the assalent, YES!. He did die, Did it stop him? No. It took a blade to stop the bad guy. Sometimes experience is more emportant than emotional opinion. What feels right isn't always, regardless of how it sounds. Why do you think our special forces carrying wilson, Nolan, Les Bear and other high end .45s when they could have any 9 that they wanted. Even the self destructing Beretta. Study The FBI shooting files. and termanal balistics, and re- evaluate, Peoples lives are to presious to bet on feelings. Get Facts. ao a side note 9s are natorious for over penetration. Making you, the ccw holder libal for what happens with your round after exiting the other side of the bad guy. Carrying a firearm for defence is a very grave resposibility. Learn and practice all you can. There is no room for emotional decisions. You studied to drive a car. Now study and research, before carring a weapon This is serious folks,, M. Lovett
 
Hey, again, Danny. I'm supposed to be studying, darn it... :D

Nam, there really is no such animal as "stopping power". There is killing power, which any bullet has. The methodology used by M&S is suspect, in that it only used single shots to the torso to judge round effectiveness. Where I'm from, we shoot aggressors twice on reflex- more if they're damn yankees. ;) (The point I'm making is that well-trained modern shooters tend to fire twice if they are only engaging a single target. "Torso hit" covers a lot of area, too...What I'm saying is that the whole "one shot stop" premise is flawed from inception.)

Let me try to summarize quickly. First and most importantly, if one HAS to attend a gunfight, bring a shoulder arm (rifle or shotgun). These weapons are not only more powerful than sidearms (revolvers and pistols), but the stock aids in control, which translates into both speed and accuracy.

Next, with any rapidly cycling firearm, shoot twice (at least). Just train that thought right in. The sole exception should be when the perp instantly drop in his tracks- but that almost never happens.

There is no wonder magic bullet. If you are using an underpowered handgun round (ie, all of them), expect to be forced to score multiple hits to stop an attacker. Expect to make decent hits if the multiple rounds you are sending downrange are to actually prove effective.

Once upon a time, handgun bullet made holes. When the modern hollowpoint bullet was developed, some of those handgun bullets expanded when fired into tissue, making bigger holes. Multiple generations of development later, we have gone from being forced to find a handgun that fires the largest diameter round- since we don't really expect it to expand- to being able to choose anything from 9x19mm up, and expect most of the rounds to expand with decent ammo. By expanding, the playing field has narrowed- there is much less difference (in effectiveness) between a well-expanded 115-grain .355 bullet and an expanded 230-grain .45 bullet, than there is between unexpanded bullets in those two calibers! So, the caliber- after reaching that "minimum caliber" considered base (9x19mm or .38 Special)- is much less important than other factors such as how well you shoot the piece, dependability, size, cost, etc.

(If the two paragraphs immediately prior seem contradictory, they aren't. Expanded bullets make bigger holes. Even these bigger holes may not stop an adversary immediately, and never expect just one to do the job.)

Okay...after the infamous Miami Shootout, when a single wonder magic bullet did not immediately stop an aggressor (it would have apparently killed him, but would have taken a few minutes longer than several FBI agents needed), the FBI decided they needed a new super magic wonder caliber. Thus the FBI, the S&W 1076, and the Glock 20.

The new super magic wonder caliber- 10mm- was too much for many of the Fibbers to handle. It was downloaded to a 180 grain bullet at about 1,000 fps- almost identical in power to several popular loads for the venerable .45 ACP. It was discovered that the 10mm reduced power loads could be put in a shorter case. This shorter-cased round could be made in 9mm-sized platforms. Thus, the .40 Smith and Wesson- which quickly became the standard for many police departments in the US. The .40 is a higher-pressure cartridge than the .45, so while it's not more powerful, some experienced shooters feel the recoil more sharply.

The Smith 10s are strong guns, Danny. It was the agents that were weak, not the pistols. ;) (Poorly trained/skilled would be more accurate, truthfully.)

MLovett: thanks for the entertaining anecdote, that's quite a story. Where and when did this happen? I'd certainly love to read more details about it- I'm sure the press had a heyday. :)


John
 
M. Lovett:

You're right sir, this is serious, and facts are indeed what are needed.

Fact: the over penetration you mention is only a factor in 9mm Full Metal Jacket ammunition.

Fact: 'Ole reliable, the .45 ACP firing 230 grain hardball, penetrates about 26 inches (much more with a shoulder-stabilized bullet, approximately another 50% deeper).

Fact: there is no "stopping power", sir. I am aware of instances of combatants being engaged with crew-served weapons (.50 BMG and 40mm grenade) and continuing to fight after taking at least one hit.

Why do you think our special forces carrying wilson, Nolan, Les Bear and other high end .45s when they could have any 9 that they wanted.

Because they can. If they are using FULL METAL JACKETED AMMUNITION, the diameter of the bullet does count, doesn't it? Since we are not so limited in our own choices- and are indeed wise purveyors of information, as you suggest we be- we will load our weapons with more effective ammunition. Incidentally, perhaps you might consider that the armed civilian in the US is in a somewhat different position than a member of a small military unit, covered by extremely well-trained fellow operatives armed with automatic weapons, and with fire support usually on tap.

I respectfully await your reply.

John Shirley
 
On a lighter note, My Knife shop is here at Ft Hood Tx. I get a lot fo feed back on both street shootings and combat shootings, as well as blade performance. One of my customers, While taking a serious relieaf behing his track"thats tank to us civies" was attacked from behind. He had a stright edge fighter that I had made for him. He spun and slashed. The enemys head literaly fell off. Did it stop the enemy, yep, kill him, you bet, Over penetrate, OOps. I understand that blade expansion was non existant. Oh Well. I'd hate to explain that one in a court of law. HE...HE...Seriously the less rounds you have to put into an attacker, the better in court, Been there. Done that. No Fun........... For FBI. statistics on street shootings, check out the 1911forums.com Be safe guys. M. Lovett
 
I remember seeing the made-for-TV version of the Miami shootout. I remember thinking that the guy with the Mini was the only smart one in the bunch.
I also remember thinking that these Feds were asking for it, letting the suspects know they were being followed and preparing them for the shootout.

I am no stranger to the knockdown.stopping.lethal discussion.
Hell I used to have the Taylor knockdown formula memorized.
(I think that's the name, its been a long time)

I have just seen too many examples of superior training making a tiny weapon invincible. I dont need convincing about the 45, I have had three!
(two colts and a SW 645)

I have also had 9s and 40's.

IF the double tap is a necessary method, and most say that it is, then capacity requirements might sugest that 8 rounds is probably the minimum.
Do they use the double tap with revolvers?
 
Spectre, Please check out the FBIs data concerning lawenforcement shootings. I am not talking fmj. Why do you recon that all the top schools. Ie, Thunder Ranch Gun Sight and a host of others teach the double tap technique for .38 and 9mm. More so than the .40 and .45. I Like the 9mm and have been known to carry several over the years. Easy to shoot, Reliable in function. HP35 Brownining Hi-Power one of my favorits. The .45 is intimidating to many. The 9mm is easier to learn and master. The original question was what caliber is best. Not who can give the best argument, or sound the most impressive. Again, Check the Stats. And made your own decision. And I hope with all honesty that you don't have to go thru what I or the people at Luby's did, Experiance is still the best teacher. Stats avaliable at 1911forums.com No longer arguing the point. research and study, argue later.. M Lovett
 
You are right Modern bullets are indeed far superior to what came earlier. I still can't help but bemember poor Winchesters troubles when introducingTHE EVIL BLACK TALLON. They still bring top dollar at the gun shows.. Mythical majic bullet, that blew attackers in half. yada, yada, yada, In extensive testing they failed misrably. As Little as a jean jaket and a t-shirt plugged up the cavity and prevented any expansion whatsoever..Ie. FMJ. While I will carry only H.P. The fully dependable bullet, has not yet been proven to exist. Don't belieave in stopping power, Try a good base ball bat to the forehead, Old Tech still works, Now if i could only get a Milt-Sparks Inside the wasteband holster for My Loie-Slugger----HE---HE---Or Better Yet An ankel Holster for an M60 Yea, Thats the ticket Later M Lovett
 
Mr. Lovett,

All my training- Taylor-trained teacher (Ohio), Crews-trained teacher (Georgia), Army Stressfire- has stressed double taps or controlled pairs. My civilian instructors have all been .45 shooters.

Most recently, I was firing controlled pairs at close range targets with an M4. At that range, the 5.56 is delivering about 1200 ft-lbs of energy (as opposed to a mere 370 for the current popular 230 grain FMJ .45 loads). Yeah, we were told to shoot twice, despite the fact that our evil death rays were delivering an astounding amount of energy over 3x as powerful as the mighty .45!

"The handgun would not be my choice of weapon if I knew I was going to a fight. I’d choose a rifle, a shotgun, an RPG or an atomic bomb instead."

"Unless things have changed a lot, I don’t believe it would be wise to start a war with a handgun, any handgun."
-Clint Smith, director of Thunder Ranch

One area that gets a good deal of discussion is the choice of the proper defensive handgun. Some prefer the double-action revolver, others like the double-action semiauto, and a large group favor the single-action semiauto. In addition, the 9mm, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, etc. all have their following. In some unenlightened circles the type of pistol you carry becomes a status symbol, regardless of the person’s ability to use the weapon effectively. Smith told me that he probably gets more phone calls about what sort of pistol the student ought to bring than he gets on any other issue.

Smith said, "I start by asking the student which handgun he shoots best. I then suggest that he get two handguns, just alike, and put the others away. My own opinion is that he will do his best with a handgun that has only one kind of function mode, such as the Model 1911 or Browning Hi-Power, or the likes of the Glock or S&W Sigma double-action-only pistols. These pistols, with a single function mode, give the shooter a consistency of delivery shot after shot. The double-action revolver and double-action semiauto can be learned, but my observation is that it takes a bit longer to develop a level of competency."

...Smith finished his comments on handguns with a remark that ought to be memorized by everyone who carries a defensive handgun. He said, "Hitting your attacker in the proper place and stopping the attack is much more important than your choice of calibers."
-Sheriff Jim Wilson
 
Great gun stuff as usual John. Thanks, also for the Sunniland shootout link- more there than I needed to remember. I lived in Miami then, less than 5 miles away from there. P&M had been killing target shooters in the Everglades- the likes of me.

<You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Spectre again.>

Welcome Mr. Lovett- also interesting stuff. The Black Talon bullet- I remember a gunshop employee actually shot a side of beef with some.

A waste of meat. In my humble opinion.


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