This was to some degree interesting; it was in actuality more eye opening to see where most of your heads are. I was not interested in furthering this thread until Robert "H" (BOMB) POSTED his reply, and the fact that I believe there is actually some Law Enforcement Officers reading this.
I tried to give you all some of the fundamental issues when dealing with this question but I found that I was almost totally misunderstood or just blown off.
Instead, I read of this guys favorite and that guys favorite. Then the overwhelming case studies and coroner reports and the weight velocity issues and finally some daylight through the tunnel from the H-Bomb.
Folks, you totally miss my point. Neither my sea-brothers nor myself would just give you my /our opinion. If that is what someone wants, do not come to me. I do not want that responsibility. I would rather give you the foundation of how to think so that you can make your own educated decisions.
We pass on knowledge in a way that over time continues to grow on you. We want you to understand the fundamentals so that as the theory moves out of the classroom you have the tools to react accordingly no matter what. Our knowledge cannot be based on specific situations but rather on all situations. We must give the student the ability to persevere in any situation, and that comes from the fundamentals, which are too often overlooked for what is cool and new.
I spoke of the dynamics of a weapon, I spoke of target area, I spoke of concept and I left it open for you to analyze these details and see if it makes a difference. If I mention my fondness of .357 but suggest no suitable weapon exists, understanding that all though your ballistic reports support the Sig cartridge reacts the same as the revolver is that to mean that the guns are the same, and thus the results would be the same.
I am not here to influence you guys I now what I am going to do I have been there enough, you do what you want. My goal here is to try to open up your minds to issues that are not commonly taught because few people can.
Weapons are built for the human hand, and there are dynamics that effect ones ability to be accurate. I don't care if you have a smart bullet; if you are incapable of hitting an effective target before the threat neutralizes you than you are urinating up a line in the wind, underwater! "YOU CAN NOT MISS FAST ENOUGH TO WIN!"
It takes a lot more than just a gun to survive a life and death encounter and the gun becomes a tool but by no means the most important one.
I remember being at a school with British and New Zealand SAS people. We were all cross training and the Kiwi's were teaching a handgun-shooting block. They were carrying Browning High Powers and were teaching repeated shots (double taps), politically correct standard pairs. My platoon was using match grade .45's as mandated by our OIC (officer in charge) LT.RJ THOMAS. MR. Thomas taught me a great deal about shooting a gun and about the mindset of battle. He taught me more than even he intended, as I saw and heard more than what was intentionally put out. Mr. Thomas was a NAVY CROSS RECIPIENT and for those of you who don't know, that is second to the CONGRESSIONAL MEDAL OF HONOR. More on that see, "Men Under Pressure" by Darrel YOUNG.
Anyway, the Kiwi instructors kept hassling Mr. Thomas because he was shooting one round at a time, and they wanted two at a time. Now, forget the fact that his one round was dead center in the head (no pun intended) every time and forget the fact that he was as fast or faster than everybody else, it was not right according to the curriculum.
This man was a highly decorated war veteran who was very experienced in the ways of dispatching life, he was also very good at saving lives, but we are focusing on the former and thats another story.
After repeated remarks by the instructors, Mr. Thomas finally stated if I can hit him between the eyes with this one bullet before he can hit me, than what the hell do I care about two rounds at a time for.
Point being if you know what your capabilities are than I don't care if I hit him with a .22. If it hits his brain before he can do anything to me, game over!
Gentlemen your issues on ammo was well founded and all the reports should be of interest but please don't bet your life on this stuff, there are always too many relevant variables left out. Like where did he hit the suspect, what was suspect wearing, what were their respective frames of mind, what was the level of relevant training of those involved, etc.etc.
In the end if I am a complete weapon system with the best firearm for me, and that means my head is right and my weapon allows me to be smooth, fast and accurate, than if I hit him in the eye with a Corbon round that broke up but I follow up and close the distance and give him a couple of Abe Lincolns, what else do you want to talk about.
Guys read between the lines I don't have enough time to spell it out.
Remember the FBI shootout in Dade County in 1986. One extremely qualified agent lost his glasses and then unfortunately his life for us, but the question, what makes a complete weapon system? This man had the ability to hit the target I am told and he had the mindset but he didn't see that well without his glasses. Roosevelt kept an extra pair of glasses with him, just incase.
Some people wanted to say that that incident was about equipment not training I beg to differ.
Everyone in a failure always wants to point at equipment because it is the most tangible thing to understand it is something we can change quickly but I assure you that is generally not the case. In that same shooting there was an issue about bullets but in the very beginning of that firefight it is reported that before the bad guy fired any fatal shots he already suffered from at least two non-survivable hits. In the Hollywood shooting everyone commented on not only weapons but that the bad guys had body armor, the bad guys in Miami had none. What if that mentality had on body armor and no bullets worked what then, will you run, will you quit?
Remember Hannibal, If I cannot find the way I will make the way that is the mind dudes. There are no excuses when your life is on the line, you can't call for Mr. Wizard and get out of here.
I have to mention for the Gerbil Bat, I alternate rounds in my handguns, when I have to use commercial ammo. There is not one round that is perfect for me. Point of aim point of impact is no issue at most distances that I am concerned with, so party on you wild man!
If you want to do a case study forget the gun vs. ammo crap and consider that almost all of the most famous Law Enforcement shootings were LE. got hammered, and without exception, the bad guys MOVED and the Cops stood still! Incidents like Newhall, Nico, Miami, and Hollywood just to name a few. So when someone wants to talk about guns and ammo remember it is not what you got, but what you do with what you got, that is most important.
Finally there is ammo out there that is beyond your wildest dream and these people will prove it to you, but still people do not believe it. I SAID PROVE IT TO YOU! This means that people still don't get it when it is right in front of them. Do not ask me about the ammo but if someone guesses I will tell you if you are right.
One clue, the Army and Navy Elite use this very expensive stuff across the board.
