Handles w/ no pins ???

Phil Dwyer

Phil Dwyer

Joined
Feb 28, 2006
Messages
3,494
Hi Folks,

I got a stumper of a question (for me). I see everywhere just about everyone using, and saying to use, pins to secure your handle material against shear forces. But, then I see makers like Ed Fowler and Michael Hoover make some pretty sweet looking stuff without them. Ed's sheep horn handles are just epoxied together. I believe Mike's stone and fossil folder scales are just secured with adhesive too. What gives?

Thanks, Phil
 
you just dont drill thru the panels completely ..

then cut the pins to match the size needed so it doesnt push the panel off the steel ..

and you dont want it to short either ..
 
Hidden pins work well to keep sharing down. Drilling the tang like Swiss cheese helps the epoxy bond from scale to scale. Both procedures require a structural epoxy like T-88 , accraglass, or similar. The 5 minute stuff won't hold up as well under this situation.
Stacy
 
Quick setting epoxy should not be used IMO. They are just not as strong.

I think on a hidden tang knife with a solid piece of stag, horn or wood, you can get away with no pins just fine. You just have to be sure that the epoxy you use flows real good so that there is no empty space between the tang and handle material. When the epoxy hardens, the handle and epoxy becomes solid around the tang. It will not come off even if you want it to without breaking the handle itself.

On a full tang with scales, I believe you should use pins and drill a few holes on the tang and the inside of the scales for the epoxy to hold on to. Even if you can get away without pins, the pins will make it stronger and IMO look better too.
 
Clean, Clean, Clean, If glue or some sort of adhesive is used and it comes to the point
of the mechanical factor needed to hold things together the glue has obviously failed.
I'm a firm believer in using pins bolts etc. any time possible. That being said I've got
more than one stick tang made from files in the early 70's that have been abused beyond
imagination and they were a blind stick tang assembly with 24 hour epoxy, no problems
yet.
Ken.
 
Here are photos of two diffferent knives but my process was the same. I glued up and flattened the maple and teak together as one piece before drilling any holes for the hidden pins. In hindsight I should have swiss cheesed the back half of the tang for epoxy rivets but now I know for next time. Could have used more pins in the back half also. I also do not feel comfortable doing hidden pins on hard use knives though.
before...
PICT0105.jpg


After...
Jeep4.jpg
 
I watched Ed Fowler put one of his handles together on his DVD...no pins were used. As for Redrummd's stone scaled folders, they are bracketed on both ends with bolsters. He has over 50 knives in circulation with no problems. I'm sure Ed mustn't be having any issues either as one of his primary goals is a rugged working knife that will hold up to all kinds of tasks.

I wonder what the life span of a good epoxy is? I must admit, I am attracted to making hidden tang knives that go clean through the handle and are mechanically secured to/with a pommel.
 
Just me, I wouldnt trust a hard using knife with the handle just glued on.. Epoxy is more of a water seal for my handles. The pins are heavily crimped so the only way to get the handles off is grind them off once they are set.;)
 
My first rebuild was a Ka-Bar blank I put mortised pakkawood scales on. No pins at all, just hardware-store super glue. That was over 20 years ago and that knife has been used a LOT, including pounding dozens of tent stakes into hard rocky ground. No sign of failure yet. Mind you, the end of the tang is exposed (flush with the scales) so the steel, not just the scales are taking the force in that instance.

Having said that, I'll never do it again. Everything I build has at least one pin in it, regardless of the style. Better safe than sorry. I subscribe to what I think Trace is saying: the knife should be mechanically sound without adhesive. The adhesive is there as a sealant, although any extra strength is of course a good thing.

I guess what I'm saying is, a little overkill is good in this case.
 
I have heard one thing that makes sense to me from a few makers, including one above, and that is: if the handle must be destroyed to be able to remove it from the tang, the glue bond has fulfilled its purpose and questions of strength are a moot point. Some epoxies like T-88 I have more faith in to do this. It depends on the style of the knife whether it will look good without pins, and on the personal taste of the user. Pins and rivets are classic looking and definitely have a purpose as mechanical fasteners for scales or grips, but epoxies have really stepped up in the 20th century to uses no glue could withstand 100 years ago. I remember a post somewhere else in which Ed Fowler was asked about his pin-less handle construction in light of his emphasis on performance, and basically I recall him saying he will notch the tang on both sides, rough it up, etc., and just epoxy it right on. No problems.

I still like Corbys for full tang knives, though. I would feel uneasy without using them for strength.
 
I put some zebrawood on a blade with CA and no pins. As I was shaping the wood let's just say I messed it up. Now I am having a hellofa time getting the wood off the blade. The wood is breaking but the glue is holding.

I will still use corby bolts and CA for larger, working knives even tho I don't think I need to use the pins.
 
daveinvegas said:
I put some zebrawood on a blade with CA and no pins. As I was shaping the wood let's just say I messed it up. Now I am having a hellofa time getting the wood off the blade. The wood is breaking but the glue is holding.

I will still use corby bolts and CA for larger, working knives even tho I don't think I need to use the pins.
Click to expand...

set it in the freezer over nite, take it out in the morning and give it a thump with a mallet


should pop right off
 
stephanfowler said:
set it in the freezer over nite, take it out in the morning and give it a thump with a mallet


should pop right off
Click to expand...

And that should tell you how reliable glue is. 250-300 degree heat will do the same thing. Modern epoxies are wonderful things, but mechanical fastening always works.
 
3M makes a two side tape used on Aircraft. I know Chris reeve used it on his pink Ivory knife on his site. The knife is still holding up after 20 years.
 
In my mind it comes down to this. Epoxies and glues might hold for 20 + years with no problems, but the key word is "might". If I sell 100 knives with glued on handles, and one fails, that is a 99% success rate, but that one failure would be viewed as catastrophic to the person who shelled out decent money for a knife. I use pins to keep the handle from shearing off, and epoxy to keep it from pulling off. If people want a handle free from pins, I would either try hidden pins or tell them to look somewhere else. It is not worth it to me to have a handle failure, when it could have easily been prevented with pins. Plus, I want my knives to last generations, not just 20 years. I am not saying that Ed Fowler is wrong, he probably has forgotten more about knives than I know, I just always go for the extra security of pins.
 
On the few occasions when I do hidden pins, I don't actually use pins.I tap the tang and use either short set screws or button head screws, then counterbore into the scale.Your holding power will increase greatly and the shear strength as well.Dave:)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top