Hardness/Quality of 19th Century Frontier Knives

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greensngravy

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Sep 1, 2015
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Curious if any of our experts can discuss how the steels and forging quality of 19th century frontier blades compare with, for example, a run of the mill hunting knives of today. Say, a high carbon steel from an American made knife like a 70's Scrade Walden Old Timer.
 
A lot of the 1095 used back then is still being used today. If it aint' broke, don't fix it.--KV
 
Fit and finish was as good or better. Steel quality and the ability to achieve consistent hardness is far better now. It was quite common to see hardnesses in the Rc 30's - 40's up till the 1960's or so.

In Gun Digest of '78, an article by Robert Burmeister gives the following Rockwell N scales values for a bunch of pre and post WWII knives that were tested:

1) Collins Machete- 71(53 C scale).
2) 1917 Bolo- 66(47-48).
3) Collins No. #18- 69(51).
4) Norwegian Bayonet- 62(43).
5) Marine F-U- 74(56).
6) Navy F-U- 66(47-48).
7) M-1(M4) Carbine Bayo.- 41(20).
8) Remington Hunter(6 1/4")- 66(47-48).
9) Marble's Expert- 66(47-48).
10) Bower Bowie knife- 54(34).
11) Wingen Skinner- 59(39-40).
12) Wusthoff Folder- 52(32).
13) Randall No # 7- 75(57-58).
14) Randall #8- 65(46-47).
15) Randall #1- 72(52).
16) Norwegian Gelio knife(Morseth)- 30 (no C-scale listing cause of multi- layered const. looks like a Morseth).
17) Wingen Yukon Hunter- 78(60-61).
18) Dexter Butcher- 76(58-59).
19) Western- 75(57-58).
20) Buck- 72(54).
21) Buck 110- 75(57-58).
22) Wilkinson- 58(38-39).
23) F-S- 57(37 -38).

They also tested a few old Marble's pre WWII fixed blades over on the now defunct Knifeforums and they were in the 30's - low 50's Rc.
 
DeadboxHero said:
I believe he is talking about knives used when they exploring the west in the early 1800's Lewis and Clark, Jedidiah Smith etc
Click to expand...
I’m confused because he asked for a comparison with “run of the mill hunting knives of today.” Then the example was a 70’s Schrade. But the 1970s are not today nor the 19th century so I don’t know what we are comparing.
 
Thanks for all the input. Lots of expertise here! S
tltt said:
Fit and finish was as good or better. Steel quality and the ability to achieve consistent hardness is far better now. It was quite common to see hardnesses in the Rc 30's - 40's up till the 1960's or so.

In Gun Digest of '78, an article by Robert Burmeister gives the following Rockwell N scales values for a bunch of pre and post WWII knives that were tested:

1) Collins Machete- 71(53 C scale).
2) 1917 Bolo- 66(47-48).
3) Collins No. #18- 69(51).
4) Norwegian Bayonet- 62(43).
5) Marine F-U- 74(56).
6) Navy F-U- 66(47-48).
7) M-1(M4) Carbine Bayo.- 41(20).
8) Remington Hunter(6 1/4")- 66(47-48).
9) Marble's Expert- 66(47-48).
10) Bower Bowie knife- 54(34).
11) Wingen Skinner- 59(39-40).
12) Wusthoff Folder- 52(32).
13) Randall No # 7- 75(57-58).
14) Randall #8- 65(46-47).
15) Randall #1- 72(52).
16) Norwegian Gelio knife(Morseth)- 30 (no C-scale listing cause of multi- layered const. looks like a Morseth).
17) Wingen Yukon Hunter- 78(60-61).
18) Dexter Butcher- 76(58-59).
19) Western- 75(57-58).
20) Buck- 72(54).
21) Buck 110- 75(57-58).
22) Wilkinson- 58(38-39).
23) F-S- 57(37 -38).

They also tested a few old Marble's pre WWII fixed blades over on the now defunct Knifeforums and they were in the 30's - low 50's Rc.
Click to expand...
tltt said:
Fit and finish was as good or better. Steel quality and the ability to achieve consistent hardness is far better now. It was quite common to see hardnesses in the Rc 30's - 40's up till the 1960's or so.

In Gun Digest of '78, an article by Robert Burmeister gives the following Rockwell N scales values for a bunch of pre and post WWII knives that were tested:

1) Collins Machete- 71(53 C scale).
2) 1917 Bolo- 66(47-48).
3) Collins No. #18- 69(51).
4) Norwegian Bayonet- 62(43).
5) Marine F-U- 74(56).
6) Navy F-U- 66(47-48).
7) M-1(M4) Carbine Bayo.- 41(20).
8) Remington Hunter(6 1/4")- 66(47-48).
9) Marble's Expert- 66(47-48).
10) Bower Bowie knife- 54(34).
11) Wingen Skinner- 59(39-40).
12) Wusthoff Folder- 52(32).
13) Randall No # 7- 75(57-58).
14) Randall #8- 65(46-47).
15) Randall #1- 72(52).
16) Norwegian Gelio knife(Morseth)- 30 (no C-scale listing cause of multi- layered const. looks like a Morseth).
17) Wingen Yukon Hunter- 78(60-61).
18) Dexter Butcher- 76(58-59).
19) Western- 75(57-58).
20) Buck- 72(54).
21) Buck 110- 75(57-58).
22) Wilkinson- 58(38-39).
23) F-S- 57(37 -38).

They also tested a few old Marble's pre WWII fixed blades over on the now defunct Knifeforums and they were in the 30's - low 50's Rc.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info! It sounds like the knives of the 19th century may have been using much softer steels, but they put a lot of craftsmanship into them. That's what I was wondering. With modern day steel manufacturing, would you think that even some of the cheaper hunting knives using alloys like 3Cr13MoV Stainless Steel could claim to have a more consistent steel quality and hardness than the knives of yore?
 
19th century = 1800s
20th century = 1900s

Can you clarify what timeframes you are asking about.
 
Most knives of the 1800's and earlier used in the USA were imported from the big name cuttlers of Solgen, Germany and Sheffield, England.
Until The Russell Green River Works started producing knives, there really wasn't a cutlery industry here.
Blacksmiths made knives, of course. Most were probably adequate.

The imports were of high quality.
I imagine the blades were "soft" by today's standards, but consider that many users were using smooth river rocks they picked up at different camp sites to sharpen their knives when out in the boonies/sticks.
(Why carry an expensive and heavy soft or hard Arkansas sharpening stone that may get lost or broken?
That extra weight could be used for more practical things like gun powder, lead, percussion caps or extra flints, salt, flour, coffee/tea, etc.)

Actually, the most common "frontier knife" in the 1800's and prior was a butcher knife.
 
Last edited:
greensngravy said:
Thanks for all the input. Lots of expertise here! S


Thanks for the info! It sounds like the knives of the 19th century may have been using much softer steels, but they put a lot of craftsmanship into them. That's what I was wondering. With modern day steel manufacturing, would you think that even some of the cheaper hunting knives using alloys like 3Cr13MoV Stainless Steel could claim to have a more consistent steel quality and hardness than the knives of yore?
Click to expand...

Can't prove it on steel quality, but my guess is yes. Because of the expense, I haven't seen that many looks at steel composition of really old knives. That being said, everyone is getting much more consistent hardnesses now, see this chart -

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OepNr_D4lqbdTFqdqWl1rmAd4bOzPzJe6J0iEWrdJGU/htmlview .

Even when the knives are off a bit, you don't get the wild swings like yesteryear.

You might also like this discussion here - https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/rockwell-hardness-and-edge-holding.1664653/ .

And this channel has a bunch of hardness tests of newer stuff - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC091qIRbrDgeTFKCXw-6vrQ/search?query=hardness .
 
There was a relatively wide range of carbon content in steel produced in the 1800's (they could not control it as well). Impurity levels (P, S, O, etc) were also higher than today.
 
afishhunter said:
Most knives of the 1800's and earlier used in the USA were imported from the big name cuttlers of Solgen, Germany and Sheffield, England.
Until The Russell Green River Works started producing knives, there really wasn't a cutlery industry here.
Blacksmiths made knives, of course. Most were probably adequate.

The imports were of high quality.
I imagine the blades were "soft" by today's standards, but consider that many users were using smooth river rocks they picked up at different camp sites to sharpen their knives when out in the boonies/sticks.
(Why carry an expensive and heavy soft or hard Arkansas sharpening stone that may get lost or broken?
That extra weight could be used for more practical things like gun powder, lead, percussion caps or flints, salt, flour, coffee/tea, etc.)

Actually, the most common "frontier knife" in the 1800's and prior was a butcher knife.
Click to expand...
Thanks! Great answers!
 
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