heat treating 1095 advice

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I'm using 1095 steel, and heat treating with a forge. I have been having some microscopic chipping on the edge (cant see it with the naked eye but I can see it under a magnifying glass) on the edge with the 1095 and I am trying to resolve this issue. Should I purchase and try a kiln? Or should I try 1074 or 1084 or o1tool steel with forge to resolve issue? I have been heating my quenching oil to 120 degrees and still having chipping. I temper the blades in a toaster oven for an hour at 400 degrees, let it cool down and repeat. My theory is that I'm getting hot spots on the blade, because of uneven heat with the forge. any advise helps on how this chipping issue can be resolved.
If anyone has a kiln for sale let me know. I live in Atlanta. What brand of kiln have you had success with, or do you recommend? thanks
 
You should be able to do a fine job with your current set-up, lots of us do it that way. I think you just need to tweak your heat treat recipe or check your blade geometry.

What temperature are you quenching at? Are you normalizing?

In my opinion, minute chips would not be caused by uneven heat in the forge if the hottest spot (like the edge, where it is thinnest) is at critical temperature when you quench. You can put a pipe inside the forge as a diffuser and place your knife inside the pipe to bring it up to critical temp. That should solve any uneven heat problems.
 
Mark what gauge pipe? I quench it after a magnet won't stick to it, not sure what temperature. I am using stock removal method and didnt know if I needed to normalize. thanks
 
Pipe should be big enough for your blade to fit into with room to spare. The fact that you are using wood changes everything, you could be picking up extra carbon from the forge, making your blades harder and more brittle. I would say that you would be further ahead to build a propane forge than to buy a kiln, there are just so many variables in using a wood/charcoal forge. Just my opinion.

Also, how thin are you grinding your edges before heat treat?

JFYI, nonmagnetic (critical temperature) is about 1475 degrees on 1095, you want to get it just a little hotter than that so that when you quench, it doesn't fall below critical temp. on the way from the forge to the quench.
 
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Thanks Mark. I will try the pipe with the wood forge, and look into making a propane forge.

.025 is my edge thickness.
 
Try a higher tempering temp. I would suggest starting at 425 for two hours, then check for micro chipping. If you still get some then raise the temp to 440 again for two hours and check again. My 1095 blades usually go 450 for two, then another 450 two hour cycle. I use parks 50 for
quenching 1095. Sounds like your tempering temp is too low.
Brion
 
It could have been a case of the edge being too hot when quenched, if that's the case, tempering at a higher temp. could be the answer. My 1095 blades always temper well at 375. The pipe in the forge will help in two ways, it will help evenly distribute the heat and keep carbon from migrating from the charcoal into the steel.

Let us know what you find out.
 
Micro-chipping is usually due to the edge being at too low an angle. Higher than needed hardness will also acerbate the problem.

Your temper is too low for the knife type you made. Try 450F and I bet the edge works better.

When testing an edge and I finding chipping, I first increase the temper by 25°, re-sharpen, and test again. I also usually increase the edge angle by 3-5° when re-sharpening. These two things increase toughness and edge stability.

You also must realize that a micro-chipped edge is somewhat normal. It is usually an artifact of the wire coming off in sharpening. Unless the edge is polished at finer and finer grits after the wire is removed, the edge will look like a saw blade under magnification. If you just sharpen the blade and strop off the wire, it will almost surely look rough under magnification. This is normal, and not a bad thing.

It actually increases cutting ability by creating what is called a micro-serrated edge. This helps in cutting soft things like meat and fibrous things like rope. Finer and smoother edges are desirable if cutting very thin things like paper and hair. That is why a razor is stropped well after sharpening ... to polish the edge smooth.

More metallurgy:
The edge angle acuteness has a practical limit set by the grain size and the carbide size. The larger either one is, the higher the edge angle must be to remain sharp. Most people talk a lot about grain size, but the carbide size has much more to do with final sharpness. Some alloying ingredients create finer carbides - like vanadium, others, like chromium, create great big carbides. We will return to this in a minute.

Simple carbon steels, like 1095, don't have much alloying to create those big carbide problems. The carbides formed in it are iron carbides - called cementite (roughly meaning - as hard as quarry stone) . These are fairly fine in size, and much harder than the surrounding matrix, even martensite.

Spheroidizing the steel bundles up the carbides in big balls and rods, This makes for easy machining, but these big balls/rods are a problem in HT and in function if left large. Proper HT will dissolve the carbides and put the carbon back into solution. Using just the right austenitization temperature will harden the steel sufficiently to tie up all the needed carbon with the iron to make the eutectoid (.85%) and the rest will revert to cementite. This makes the best steel for toughness vs hardness.

Now, back to the big carbides and hard cementite. Whatever the size, the carbides are like rocks embedded in cement ( how the name cementite came about). As the edge gets finer and finer, there comes a point when the grain size is the limit of how small the angle can be and how thick the edge is. It is impossible for the apex to go to fully "0", regardless of how high or low the angle. The grain size ( and carbide size) will make it stop at whatever size they are. It is also impossible to get the edge angle down past a realistic low angle . At a very low angle, the edge thickness becomes a side in its own right.

Some people try and make the edge at a very low angle and use strops charged with diamond compounds up to 100,000 grit. This may make for a very smooth edge, but will not pass the theoretical limit on edge thickness. IIRC, the practical limit is around 20 microns (roughly 0.020mm or .001").

When the edge approaches the theoretical maximum, the grains fall off and leave minute serrations. This is sort of like plain cement ( sand and Portland cement) wearing away. It just exposes more of the same size sand grains. This is the theoretical limit of the edge thickness. If there are larger and harder carbides, they get exposed as "chunks" sticking out from the polished steel edge. This is sort of like the hard smooth rocks in concrete ( rocks and cement).They can easily be dislodged and fall out, creating voids that are even bigger serrations.

This is why we want fine grain and fine carbides. The finer they are the thinner the edge can be taken in sharpening. The edge angle needs to be high enough that the larger carbides determine the edge thickness. That way they don't stick out as "chunks".
 
^^^
What he said.



Mark also nailed it with the muffle pipe suggestion. Use thick-walled blackpipe.(schedule 80) keep it slightly off the coals and cover the top with ceramic wool(if you have it) or more charcoal. Allow it to come to heat sloooooowly and evenly. As Stacy explained, chipping is not always a heat treating issue. Try playing with the geometry. I found that a thin shoulder with a steeper-than-normal edge bevel makes for a very tough blade with a surprisingly good slicing ability
 
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Forge by Taylor Blades, on Flickr

Here is a pic of my forge. My plan is to make a removable section that extents upwards off the forge that will include a metal pipe that can be removed, with the top open so that I can cover the pipe with more coals. Kinda like an electric tube furnace. I am going to get a infrared thermometer so that I can read the temp of the tube and on the blade. I will extend my tempering to 450 degrees and I am going to try a steeper angle on my edge, and I will let everyone know the results. Stacy, that is good to know that micro-chipped/serrated is normal. Thanks guys Mark, Rick, Stacy, Brion Thanks, Taylor Blades
 
A wooden forge ... gotta love ingenuity.

An IR gun is pretty useless for reading temps above 1000F. They may go higher, but accuracy is very poor. It has to do with radiant heat and some other things. Even the good lab grade guns won't work when pointed into a forge. You can use a TC and PID for reading the temp, but it may be just as easy to learn to read it with a magnet and a good eyeball.
 
Micro-chipping is usually due to the edge being at too low an angle. Higher than needed hardness will also acerbate the problem.

Your temper is too low for the knife type you made. Try 450F and I bet the edge works better.

When testing an edge and I finding chipping, I first increase the temper by 25°, re-sharpen, and test again. I also usually increase the edge angle by 3-5° when re-sharpening. These two things increase toughness and edge stability.

You also must realize that a micro-chipped edge is somewhat normal. It is usually an artifact of the wire coming off in sharpening. Unless the edge is polished at finer and finer grits after the wire is removed, the edge will look like a saw blade under magnification. If you just sharpen the blade and strop off the wire, it will almost surely look rough under magnification. This is normal, and not a bad thing.

It actually increases cutting ability by creating what is called a micro-serrated edge. This helps in cutting soft things like meat and fibrous things like rope. Finer and smoother edges are desirable if cutting very thin things like paper and hair. That is why a razor is stropped well after sharpening ... to polish the edge smooth.

More metallurgy:
The edge angle acuteness has a practical limit set by the grain size and the carbide size. The larger either one is, the higher the edge angle must be to remain sharp. Most people talk a lot about grain size, but the carbide size has much more to do with final sharpness. Some alloying ingredients create finer carbides - like vanadium, others, like chromium, create great big carbides. We will return to this in a minute.

Simple carbon steels, like 1095, don't have much alloying to create those big carbide problems. The carbides formed in it are iron carbides - called cementite (roughly meaning - as hard as quarry stone) . These are fairly fine in size, and much harder than the surrounding matrix, even martensite.

Spheroidizing the steel bundles up the carbides in big balls and rods, This makes for easy machining, but these big balls/rods are a problem in HT and in function if left large. Proper HT will dissolve the carbides and put the carbon back into solution. Using just the right austenitization temperature will harden the steel sufficiently to tie up all the needed carbon with the iron to make the eutectoid (.85%) and the rest will revert to cementite. This makes the best steel for toughness vs hardness.

Now, back to the big carbides and hard cementite. Whatever the size, the carbides are like rocks embedded in cement ( how the name cementite came about). As the edge gets finer and finer, there comes a point when the grain size is the limit of how small the angle can be and how thick the edge is. It is impossible for the apex to go to fully "0", regardless of how high or low the angle. The grain size ( and carbide size) will make it stop at whatever size they are. It is also impossible to get the edge angle down past a realistic low angle . At a very low angle, the edge thickness becomes a side in its own right.

Some people try and make the edge at a very low angle and use strops charged with diamond compounds up to 100,000 grit. This may make for a very smooth edge, but will not pass the theoretical limit on edge thickness. IIRC, the practical limit is around 20 microns (roughly 0.020mm or .001").

When the edge approaches the theoretical maximum, the grains fall off and leave minute serrations. This is sort of like plain cement ( sand and Portland cement) wearing away. It just exposes more of the same size sand grains. This is the theoretical limit of the edge thickness. If there are larger and harder carbides, they get exposed as "chunks" sticking out from the polished steel edge. This is sort of like the hard smooth rocks in concrete ( rocks and cement).They can easily be dislodged and fall out, creating voids that are even bigger serrations.

This is why we want fine grain and fine carbides. The finer they are the thinner the edge can be taken in sharpening. The edge angle needs to be high enough that the larger carbides determine the edge thickness. That way they don't stick out as "chunks".

NICE! This is what occurred when we did not thermal cycle some 1084. We ended up with a nice mini camp chopper that would not take an edge. The chunks kept peeling out when we were sharpening on a coarse stone, fine stone and steel. It would never get really sharp. The metal was too coarse. We had already epoxied the handle. Now we can go back and try to thermal cycle at least the edge with a torch. Then come back and HT/quench just the edge.
 
I believe one of the knife making books has led people myself included to think if you do stock removal there is no need to normalize. I could be wrong it may be another source. Thankfully I use this forum now for most information and it has made a big difference.
 
NICE! This is what occurred when we did not thermal cycle some 1084. We ended up with a nice mini camp chopper that would not take an edge. The chunks kept peeling out when we were sharpening on a coarse stone, fine stone and steel. It would never get really sharp. The metal was too coarse. We had already epoxied the handle. Now we can go back and try to thermal cycle at least the edge with a torch. Then come back and HT/quench just the edge.

As I have pointed out, thermal cycling on 1084 is not likely the issue with bad HT results. A bad HT is the likely culprit.

I would not try to thermal cycle a finished knife with a torch. Set it aside and make a proper blade for a new knife. Test the blade before mounting the handle ( a paracord temporary handle works well). After fine tuning things, then dull the edge and finish the knife.



Well, off to church. I am directing "Down to the River to Pray" a cappella today. Wish me luck.
 
Thanks I will add normalizing on my next knife. And I'm glad you mentioned that the infrared gun wont work, I was just about to order one. But I will continue to learn temp by color . and good luck with "down to River to Pray" Stacy.

Thanks
 
Definately build a muffle. Using a forge to temper means experimenting, learning a specific steel. Ambient light matters a lot, outside in daytime with no shade makes way harder. If no shelter, night is your friend. Forging under a large oak was traditional for traveling smiths for a reason.
 
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