Heat treating, good, better, best

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Jan 29, 2010
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How much do you think the best heat treatment can improve a knife's performance?

In almost 40 years of knife making, I've heard lots of makers make lots of claims about their knives. Some could back up their claims and most could not. It does help to have a bigger story when selling high end knives.

I recently offended one of the members by challenging what he was claiming, I apologize.

I know that some here are doing some great stuff with their heat treating, like Nathan C.

Let us know what you have found in your testing.

Hoss
 
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Devin,

Metallurgy and heat treating is a vast and deep subject. Even the most learned students of the science will disagree at times. More impressive than your grasp of the material is your character. It's not always easy to apologize, particularly in a public forum. That said, I don't think challenging someone is a bad thing. And a person who feels they are right shouldn't mind being challenged. As long as the discourse is cordial we all win by gleaning a bit of knowledge from the exchange of ideas.
 
How much? It's not a tiny amount that could only be seen in side by side testing, it can be a large amount, perhaps even as great as an order of magnitude in some situations.

Here's an example:

2.jpg~original


All three blades were sharpened wet at 18 DPS and were very close in hardness and each were driven through .150" steel wire (16D nail), twice. BTW, this test was repeated many times in different geometries, this picture wasn't a fluke.

The blade on the bottom was a high performing test standard (standards are critical). The blade in the middle was industry standard heat treat 3V. The blade on top was fully tweaked 3V with changes to the austenitizing temperature, quench speed and depth, the use of and timing of cryo and successfully avoiding the need for the SHH. Same alloy, same hardness, but perhaps about 1/10th the edge damage, just through a change in the heat treat. In my experience, the best heat treatment can make a huge difference that can easily be seen at an arms length.




note: I understand that hammering a knife through a nail a couple times is not a scientific experiment and stinks of hype. Please understand this picture is shown for the purpose of this discussion, and that particular test is only one of many and the test itself has been developed over time to look for particular characteristics that are hard to quantify. After a few boxes of nails the test becomes pretty consistent and predictive which are characteristics of a valid test, even if it looks a little retarded on the surface.



I have another great example of heat treat making an enormous difference in the performance of a steel. One of the things we manufacturer in my shop is an industrial Kevlar fiber cutter used processing the jackets around fiber optic cables in high volume production. Kevlar is hard to cut, the fibers are fine as silk and don't cut clean with a dull blade. I'd love to tell you folks all about it but there are things I'm not able to discuss here. But I can tell you this: steel had been a borderline material in a high volume application so they had been using carbide and getting 10,000-20,000 cuts. We looked at steel as a cost savings and the goal was 4,000 cuts, and when we started we were nowhere near that goal. After fully optimizing the heat treat for D2 we now get 250,000 cuts, an order of magnitude more than tungsten carbide. I know that sounds like insane bullshit, but I swear it's the truth.

Optimizing a heat treat is done like any other process optimization and industrial R&D. You control variables and set up meaningful experiments and then get to work. Those D2 Kevlar cutting blades are going to put my kids through college. :thumbup:
 
Optimizing a heat treat is done like any other process optimization and industrial R&D. You control variables and set up meaningful experiments and then get to work.

Nuff said. The forum environment is a difficult and painful one in this respect, as you always seem to have to tread lightly - even when the topic seems safe as houses! I've basically given up trying to participate, as anything I say that may be contrary to the post originator's statements will be taken as aggression, or viewed as a 'conventionalist hater'.

Perhaps, if one is going to provide claims, one should be able to EXPLAIN it, with SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE and not conjecture, otherwise you're just another sales pitch.
 
I like very much Nathan's approach...very scientific. We really need to learn how to set up our mindset to do our testings, the aim is never to prove something we believe, but to try our best effort to see if we could demonstrate that our assumptions are wrong!!
Nathan showed that it is possible to set up meaningful testing, even with minimal equipment, but we should be very aware from the parlor tricks we unknowingly set up to prove our claims...that would be a wrong approach.
Cutting nails may seem like a parlor trick, but i know there is a subtle difference, that makes all the difference, in the tester mindset :thumbup:
 
Going back to Hoss' question...
Given the optimal geometry for the required application, if after a few cuts we start seeing some edge reflection, something surely went wrong in the HT :)
The fact is often we overbuild our knife in terms of stock thickness, but the very edge is still thin and it is all that matters for cutting.
Nathan's nail's test showed, just like a magnification, what happens at the edge level even when cutting softer materials...at those levels the heat treatment really matters, and the selected steel too.
 
I've seen the mist improvement in two processes. The first is setting up the steel, through normalization, and thermal cycling. The second has been dialing the austentizing temp by using coupons in 10f intervals above and below standard recommended temp. I then use the temp that showed the most consistency and highest RC out of quench. Since using these strategies, the consistency of the results is greatly improved, and the steel is consistent throughout its structure. I would say up to 20% improvement in wear resistance, and a lower tendency to chip, even at higher RC numbers. I haven't made a knife below Rc 60/61 in a long time, and only one has been returned to clean up some minor chips. (My brother in law chopped up an old outhouse with his Bowie, and cut through a bunch of nails.)
 
What I have learned is if I listen to guys like you, Nate, Kevin Cashen, Roman Landes, Dr. Verhoeven, etc, I will probably learn some very useful things. :D
 
What I have learned is if I listen to guys like you, Nate, Kevin Cashen, Roman Landes, Dr. Verhoeven, etc, I will probably learn some very useful things. :D

yess ..I sure do appreciate these guys bringing their experiences out into the open
 
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